Samson C-Witch 63 ?

[Boracay]

I built a 32' ferro Hartley a long time ago. It took me 1500 hours, 3 years (part time) and $12,000 (in 1972 dollars) to get it to sailing condition.

However that was very basic. To get to a cruising yacht level of fitout it would have taken double that.

Simplistically increasing requirements as the cube of the length this indicates that you could multiply my experience by eight.

So we're looking at 12,000 hours, 24 years and $96,000 1973 dollars (or $500,000+ 2010 dollars) to basic sailing, with the figure for a cruising fit out to be roughly double that.

For me ferro was the only way to go in Australia in 1973, a time when only the very wealthy sailed, to get a useable boat. There are so many good secondhand boats on the market these days that to build your own hardly makes sense.

As you sound young why not try for a 28 footer if you want to build your own. Costs would be comparable with seaworthy secondhand and building yourself gives a result that to my way of thinking is better than anything you could buy. Glass, ply or maybe even steel or wood all work well at that size.

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Thorin

Now the Tahitian is around half the size of the C-witch so that was an extrapolation...

Thorin, I dont want to burst your bubble, and I'm no math wiz, but I believe a 63' Samson is over FOUR times the size of a Tahitian. I believe your time estimates are incredibly low, based on my experience with our refit, and I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't try to talk you out of building in ferrocement. Look into Jay Benfords designs... he has a ton of salty looking boats, and I think you should consider steel or aluminum as a hull material. For a look at what I think you should be building, do a web search on the Dashew's boats. Sundeer and Beowolf are in that size range, and your gonna enjoy sailing them a hell of a lot more in the end. They are custom built boats, but I'm sure you can get plans for something along those lines...Just my two cents, not meant to insult, just inform.

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by Boracay

I built a 32' ferro Hartley a long time ago. It took me 1500 hours, 3 years (part time) and $12,000 (in 1972 dollars) to get it to sailing condition...

...As you sound young why not try for a 28 footer if you want to build your own. Costs would be comparable with seaworthy secondhand and building yourself gives a result that to my way of thinking is better than anything you could buy. Glass, ply or maybe even steel or wood all work well at that size.

To start. Thank you. This is exactly to type of information I am looking for.
I only work 6 months of the year so I can pour more of myself into the construction of my boat. I won't be building a 28 footer because that is only a foot longer than the boat I got in the back yard. She will take me to the deep just fine it's the getting back she doesn't understand. since starting this post and hearing all of your thoughts, I have been looking at other smaller options. I found a steel hull built to a 33' John Simpson ?Simson? plan that needs finishing for $5000, but I am reluctant to take on somebody elses mistakes (craigs list "Canada Alberta Calgary boats "37 foot sailboat"" if you want to see it). Not sure I want a steel hull anyway.

Plus being as silly as I am I really want a schooner with a clipper prow. Trying to find a plan I like in the sizes that you all are recommending to me, I do believe you, that will let me rig her as a schooner has been frustrating for me.

The C-Witch has the lines and look I want, it's bigger than I wanted (I wanted 51', north American culture oozing out of me on the dock). And it's bigger than most of you would advise by more than half her length. So what's a guy to do? I am not so brain dead to think I can mearly scale back her plan and think she would still be safe, or even keep he cabin above the water. The C-Lord and C-Baron were what got me looking at the Samson boats but I don't like the rigging options smaller boats don't have the clipper prow in most plans what should I do? How much will a navel architect charge to make me custom plans of a 32' clipper I can build myself with schooner rigging?

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

Thorin, I dont want to burst your bubble, and I'm no math wiz, but I believe a 63' Samson is over FOUR times the size of a Tahitian. I believe your time estimates are incredibly low, based on my experience with our refit, and I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't try to talk you out of building in ferrocement. Look into Jay Benfords designs... he has a ton of salty looking boats, and I think you should consider steel or aluminum as a hull material. For a look at what I think you should be building, do a web search on the Dashew's boats. Sundeer and Beowolf are in that size range, and your gonna enjoy sailing them a hell of a lot more in the end. They are custom built boats, but I'm sure you can get plans for something along those lines...Just my two cents, not meant to insult, just inform.

Thank you. Hartley boat plans 'Tahitian 38' sail boat. Maybe 2.5 but I don't think 4. But then since I can't find the article now I could be misrepresenting him. Could have taken him six week to hang the frames to start the mesh. Doesn't matter, the first rule of any debate is if you cant provide a refferance you can use it. I am SOL on that front! Lol, See I like ferro cement but it from my experience with it that I like it. That said it's dry land experience not boats.

[Doodles]

Check out the Island Princess design by Atkins & Co. It is 36' and has the clipper bow and schooner rig.

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/

[Thorin]

I do like the island princess, she's a little box and short for me in the cabin but I can fix that with out affecting the way she sails. The prow isn't as sharp as I was dreaming after but that could just be a trick of the drawing and photos. The hull seems to lack the flare and roundness that the C-Witch has. But all and all it's 85% of what I want to see when I look at my boat. I will be ordering the study plans for her. At the very least it's a starting point when I go talk to a designer about modifications.

Thank you.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Thorin

I do like the island princess, she's a little box and short for me in the cabin but I can fix that with out affecting the way she sails. The prow isn't as sharp as I was dreaming after but that could just be a trick of the drawing and photos. The hull seems to lack the flare and roundness that the C-Witch has. But all and all it's 85% of what I want to see when I look at my boat. I will be ordering the study plans for her. At the very least it's a starting point when I go talk to a designer about modifications.

Thank you.

Glad to help. I must admit I've always had a fondness for schooners and at one time wanted to build my own boat. Mine was the Wharram Tiki 38, a catamaran with a schooner rig.

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Thorin

Thank you. Hartley boat plans 'Tahitian 38' sail boat. Maybe 2.5 but I don't think 4.

OK, here is why I thought boat length alone is a poor way to compare boats when figuring time estimates. GordMay supplied this rough formula which I had heard years ago:

"The volume of a boat might vary roughly as the cube of their lengths.
Hence (63 ÷ 38) = 1.65
Cube 1.65 = 4.5
Hence, a 63 footer is about 4.5 times as large as an otherwise similar 38 footer."

Volume. That's why I still say your estimates may be off. Dont let me dissuade you from building, as I'm having a blast refitting my own large boat, but please consider other hull materials that are easier to insure and resell. IMHO, and your friend, Chris

[Thorin]

Okay I can wrap my head around that... Kind of. As is very obvious to most of you I have little boat building experience, my last marine build was a raft I made out of drift wood when I was 13 it lasted three years till somebody needed fire wood and it took longer to drag the wood to my build site than to build it. Anyway when I build houses a bigger house take more time to build, obviously. For example a war time house from WWII is about 800 Sqf, it will take 2 men that are experienced (at construction and working together) 100 hours (each) to finish the house. But it doesn't take double the time. Point in case I was building a few small cottages (800 Sqf) with a friend at 200 hours overall, then I took on a project to build a house in town for a guy that was a little over 1500 Sqf. My friend that normally works with me fell very ill and was in the hospital for three months. I built that house on my own in 320 hours. That said I made use of a Crain to lift the roof on after I built it on the ground and to stand some tall walls, the cabinets the guy wanted were prefab "Ikea" stuff, pre-finished hardwood is a breeze to put in, and the rooms were larger than any in the cottages we had built.

In the end I guess the point of my way to long a story as I look back is, material cost I can see being 4.5 the cost of a boat that is half the length and 2/3's the beam, but it is counter intuitive to me that the labor on it could be that high.

As for the material ferro is appealing only because I have been so happy with it in other applications. I am not stuck on it. I don't like working with fiberglass, I often end up cutting out and patching to get it to look the way it should, it has always been a negative experience. I don't like the feel of steel or aluminum boats, personal thing they always seem cold and just "weird" when I am on them. Wood would be an option for me but the guys I know who have/had them tell me they are twice the work as other boats.

One thing I do worry about, and this might sound hooky, is if I don't enjoy building my boat it may not have any soul for me when I sail her. My boat won't be a her, but an it. The thought makes me want to sit in the dirt.

Thanks for the input so far all of you!

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Thorin

One thing I do worry about, and this might sound hooky, is if I don't enjoy building my boat it may not have any soul for me when I sail her. My boat won't be a her, but an it. The thought makes me want to sit in the dirt.

Thanks for the input so far all of you!

Doesn't sound hooky, but if you don't enjoy the building then my worry would be you wouldn't finish the boat. I think if you see it through it will have your soul and spirit in it and sailing it will be a pleasure. I wouldn't be concerned about the medium you are working in, be it wood, ferro, alum, steel or glass, all have a spirit you need to just tap into it. It all comes from Mother Earth one way of the other.

[witzgall]

The methods and materials used to build houses have been standardized in a way that makes building them as efficient as possible. Everything is at right angles to one another. In boat building, none of this is true, with the exception perhaps of wiring. So EVERYTHING takes soo much longer to do, whether building a boat, or just installing new gear or replacing existing gear. Think about how long it takes to install a set of kitchen cabinets. Find the studs, mark the wall, hold up the cabinet, shim and screw to the studs. Easy. Now think about installing cabinets in a boat. Wait, there is no such thing as off the shelf boat cabinets, so you have to build them. No biggie, just custom cabinets, right? Except that there are no studs to screw them to, and the "Wall" is not plumb, level or even. So you have to scribe everything and make templates. And this takes time. And you have to think out every system carefully, before you start to put things together. You cannot make the whole interior, and then install it, you have to build the first piece, install it, and then measure and scribe to make the second piece, etc...

Go to boatbuilding. net, and strike up a conversation there, I am sure you can get lots of good advice.


Chris
PS - I have never built a boat, just read lots on what it takes, and talked to a few that have done so

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by witzgall

Chris
PS - I have never built a boat, just read lots on what it takes, and talked to a few that have done so

Me too and there is no way I would even consider it. Though I have had a nightmare or two.

[peterbmetcalf]

Wondering if you have decided on a design. If not, or if you have and it is wood or metal, contact MacNaughton Group. Tom MacNaughton is generous with his advice. He knows the pleasure of building and is a first rate designer. Tom Colvin is also first rate, does mostly metal. Both have designed a number of schooners.

[rubis]

12 years have past after Thorin wrote about the C witch what are the things like now? does ihe boat floats already?
My C Witch took 30 years and well over a million have sunk in
I was fortunate to buy it from the worn out builder