Sailboats with Free Standing Masts

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

I found your reply up to and including the third paragraph to be very interesting then you lost me somewhat. I am not at liberty to make reference to my achievement/experience for sake of point but that does not mean they do not exist. It is simply the case that it is not the done thing to directly extol ones virtues in my world so please forgive my modesty but maybe we could stay with the topic rather than personalise it. I have no doubt you have lots of experience and as I said before your art piece looks super.

Fair enough, will assume your achievements don't include designing and building wind loaded structures.

Not my art piece, I just project managed it. Credit goes to the artist Ned Kahn, a truly inspired guy. Bit of thread drift but might be of interest to any sailor-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsCa5UqxHYY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvkNdlKVP2Y

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Panope

Delancey, Parrel bands are rigid and made of stainless rod. Parrel beads are made of starboard. Gaff saddle is lined with felt. This arrangement as been absolutely free of sticking or jamming.

Yep, PT in background.

Steve

Thought so, went to the Wooden Boat Festival a while back. Neat place.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Panope/Steve,

That looks robust and nicely made.

I am curious (and ignorant on this), is felt commonly used in that location for that purpose (on other gaffers)?

Does the felt get any kind of lubricant?

[SqPeg]

We love our Hunter Vision 32. The mast is spun aluminum and 53' DWL. The saloon is roomy. Broached it last week in the edge of a storm (all wind, no rain) and it bounced right back. The mast is bolted to the keel.

[Panope]

I did a quick search for material prices for a mast/standing rigging like mine:

40' - 5 inch schedule 40 aluminum pipe = $900

120' - 1/2 inch galvanized wire rope = $175

2 - 1 inch galvanized turnbuckles = $80 (I use cheapo imported turnbuckles, ridiculous over-sized so they will not break).

1 - 3/4 inch galvanized turnbuckle = $18

Add anther couple hundred bucks for some aluminum bits (chain-plates, hounds etc.), welding wire, 3 thimbles, and a bunch of serving twine.

Looks like about $1400 for all new materials. The Galvanized wire lasts a very long time and is the only thing that needs to be replaced.

It is probably not possible to find a less expensive rig than this unless steel pipe is used instead of aluminum. Even if you chopped down your own tree, A wood mast would ultimately be more expensive do to added maintenance and the extra hardware, stays and perhaps spreaders needed to support the mast head (or top mast).

Steve

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

Panope/Steve,

That looks robust and nicely made.

I am curious (and ignorant on this), is felt commonly used in that location for that purpose (on other gaffers)?

Does the felt get any kind of lubricant?

Steady, I am afraid that I am also ignorant of what is the typical material for lining a gaff saddle. During Panope's first life (as a gaff schooner) my dad used an old piece of carpet that worked great for 18 years.

I did not have any carpet lying around in my shop during the rebuild but the felt was sitting on a shelf waiting for a job..... So far so good with no lubrication.

Steve

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Fair enough, will assume your achievements don't include designing and building wind loaded structures.

Not my art piece, I just project managed it. Credit goes to the artist Ned Kahn, a truly inspired guy. Bit of thread drift but might be of interest to any sailor-

Yeh.. This is quite awesome. Great bit of lateral thinking.

[Delancey]

Really nice guy. One of the nicest I have ever met.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by SqPeg

We love our Hunter Vision 32. The mast is spun aluminum and 53' DWL. The saloon is roomy. Broached it last week in the edge of a storm (all wind, no rain) and it bounced right back. The mast is bolted to the keel.

Ahoy SQPeg!

Thanks for adding your boat and photos and comments to the discussion!

I had wondered if anyone on CF had the Hunter Vision 32. By chance, I came across one the other day (online) and was interested to see it. Good to see you are enjoying it and feel good with the FSM too. I like the layout, from what I can see in photos. It is not a common layout, but who wants "common."

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Panope

Steady, I am afraid that I am also ignorant of what is the typical material for lining a gaff saddle. During Panope's first life (as a gaff schooner) my dad used an old piece of carpet that worked great for 18 years.

I did not have any carpet lying around in my shop during the rebuild but the felt was sitting on a shelf waiting for a job..... So far so good with no lubrication.

Steve

Steve,

The more I see and learn about your boat, the more impressed I am with your effort, creativity, and workmanship….and practicality! Great job!

Regarding the saddle? I really am ignorant (no prior knowledge) on the matter. If carpet or felt works, I suppose some Old Salt in the Old Country might have used a bit of sheepskin and a little dab of sheep's wool lanolin (wood mast).

Anyway, thanks again for adding the photos AND the other content with the cost evaluation for making your mast.

On the issue of mast maintenance. The other night I was looking at a lovely 1970 era ketch that has very tall wood masts (varnished). It got me thinking of how much time and how often I (or some other lucky crew) would get to go up that tall stick to apply some more varnish (over a projected ownership of the boat of about 20 years), when in the tropic sun. Not the best job for anyone who does not like heights.

So, the "cost" of having a low maintenance stick (whether aluminum or carbon fiber) may be offset by the savings of some other potentially costly things like time, effort, and risk (of injury) or having to pay someone to do the sticky work when needed.

In short, "Low Maintenance" is good, and just gets better and better as one gets older and older.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Panope

Steady, I am afraid that I am also ignorant of what is the typical material for lining a gaff saddle...

Leather was the traditional material for gaff jaws (I hope I'm right here?), well lubricated with animal fat or Dubbin. On the two old gaffers I've been privileged to sail on, I recall spherical wooden parrell beads, and laminated wooden mast hoops (to attach the mainsail) that are steamed to shape then sprung around the mast (like those circular keyrings that are sprung onto a key) and glued together. Nothing wrong with modernizing to ss, nylon and carpet though!

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by SqPeg

We love our Hunter Vision 32. The mast is spun aluminum and 53' DWL. The saloon is roomy. Broached it last week in the edge of a storm (all wind, no rain) and it bounced right back. The mast is bolted to the keel.

Yay, glad you added pictures of your Hunter. I've come across several of these in San Francisco Bay and wondered about them.

[u4ea32]

Last fall at IBEX, there was a session where free standing rigs were discussed in the context of "why are none built today, when they seemed to all of the industry to be the right way to do it?"

The reason jointly agreed was that the number of people who want one are now served by the small number that have already been built.

Its not the cost to produce. Its not performance. Its not cost of ownership.

Its the market demand.

That was the group consensus of people who have been building and selling boats for decades. That does not mean its exactly right, but its the way designers, builders, and brokers have learned through direct experience to think about freestanding masts.

I am designing a boat for retirement: to be built to a budget and operated under a fixed income without big shocks to capital. A boat I can operate when I am as decrepit as my parents.

I figure resale happens after I am no longer around to worry about it.

[Scaramanga F25]

When I bought my first cruising boat in 1974, a W32, what I really wanted was a cruising catamaran. 98% of the brokers and sailors spoke only of doom.

So it took another 25 years for acceptance by the most conservative community I deal with, sailors.

So it will be with freestanding spars. Aircraft abandoned wires a very long time ago.

[SqPeg]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Yay, glad you added pictures of your Hunter. I've come across several of these in San Francisco Bay and wondered about them.

More pics