Sail trim question

[laanan]

Hello,

I would love some advice on sail trim. I’ve been sailing about 6 months now with my ‘78 Cat 22, and now that I’ve got a hang of the basics, I am looking to improve my skill a little bit.

One thing I notice while beating up wind is that I get blown to leeward when my mainsail is too trimmed or close hauled. I guess this is contrary to my expectations, in that what I expect is to be able to bring my sails in as tight as possible and then point the boat as close to the wind as possible, but it doesn’t seem to work out, or at least I make zero headway. So I end up sheeting out a bit with the main, and that lets me get headway, but then I can’t point up as much as I want.

Maybe this is normal, but I guess I just expect to be able to set my sails and keep the tiller centered. Saturday I found that I could find a sweet spot with the sail trim that would let my tiller stay centered, but I could not point up amy higher in the wind that way. Is it normal to have to keep the tiller cranked over to sail in a straight-ish line when close hauled?

I can’t wait until Covid is over so I can have someone sail with me and give me some tips real time!!!

Thanks for any advice!

[StuM]

The tendency for the boat to round up into the wind when close hauled is called "weather helm" and is very common. Having to keep some pressure on the helm when close hauled is generally a good thing. The opposite effect is called "lee helm" and is generally a bad thing.

If you are losing speed when close hauled, you are trying to sail too close to the wind. Rather than easing sail, bear away a bit until you pick up boat speed.

[psk125]

If you're using the original '78 sails, that could also be impacting your pointing ability.

[Snore]

Sailing is all about the physics.

Take the time to read some of Arvel Gentry’s work Gentry Sailing | Theory and Practice

[Knotical]

Fixed keel or centerboard?
And if centerboard, were you sailing with the board up or down?

[flee27]

Where are you located?

There are many questions to be answered before any real advise can be given. Start with the ones above and hopefully this thread will develop into giving you some answers.

Foster

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by laanan

Hello,

I would love some advice on sail trim. I’ve been sailing about 6 months now with my ‘78 Cat 22, and now that I’ve got a hang of the basics, I am looking to improve my skill a little bit.

One thing I notice while beating up wind is that I get blown to leeward when my mainsail is too trimmed or close hauled. I guess this is contrary to my expectations, in that what I expect is to be able to bring my sails in as tight as possible and then point the boat as close to the wind as possible, but it doesn’t seem to work out, or at least I make zero headway. So I end up sheeting out a bit with the main, and that lets me get headway, but then I can’t point up as much as I want.

Maybe this is normal, but I guess I just expect to be able to set my sails and keep the tiller centered. Saturday I found that I could find a sweet spot with the sail trim that would let my tiller stay centered, but I could not point up amy higher in the wind that way. Is it normal to have to keep the tiller cranked over to sail in a straight-ish line when close hauled?

I can’t wait until Covid is over so I can have someone sail with me and give me some tips real time!!!

Thanks for any advice!

Sometimes with boats with lots of sail area you have to both turn up during or before the wind hits (watch the wind on the water to know when to turn up) and ease the mainsheet.

The best racers can keep their boats sailing at the same angle of heal through most any gust by during both.

Its takes lots of practice to get it down though.

As a racer and when you are near say 25 other boats all headed up wind in gusty conditions, you can quickly see the differences in the skippers .......that is as long as the other things are right like mast rake, mast prebend, batten thickness, traveler position, sail age, etc

[Stu Jackson]

The C22 is a masthead rig and the jib does much of the work. I had one for 5 enjoyable years in SF.


I recommend Don Guillette's excellent book highly:


https://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998

[jackdale]

Do you have tell tales on your foresail? As a start they should both fly just about straight back and be parallel. Bear away until they do so.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by laanan

Hello,

I would love some advice on sail trim. I’ve been sailing about 6 months now with my ‘78 Cat 22, and now that I’ve got a hang of the basics, I am looking to improve my skill a little bit.

One thing I notice while beating up wind is that I get blown to leeward when my mainsail is too trimmed or close hauled. I guess this is contrary to my expectations, in that what I expect is to be able to bring my sails in as tight as possible and then point the boat as close to the wind as possible, but it doesn’t seem to work out, or at least I make zero headway. So I end up sheeting out a bit with the main, and that lets me get headway, but then I can’t point up as much as I want.

Maybe this is normal, but I guess I just expect to be able to set my sails and keep the tiller centered. Saturday I found that I could find a sweet spot with the sail trim that would let my tiller stay centered, but I could not point up amy higher in the wind that way. Is it normal to have to keep the tiller cranked over to sail in a straight-ish line when close hauled?

I can’t wait until Covid is over so I can have someone sail with me and give me some tips real time!!!

Thanks for any advice!

A Catalina 22 is a fine boat which will sail to windward quite nicely. It sounds like you are developing too much weather helm (you mention being unable to sail with the tiller centered).

This will be caused by too much power in the main (or a large genoa with too much shape-blown out-which can also cause weather helm).

You don't mention have a lot of heel when this happens. If that is occurring than you have too much sail area up. Step one reduce sail area by reefing or smaller head sail.

Otherwise make sure your main sail is as flat as you can get it, by increasing outhaul tension.

Then let the traveler down to leeward. Even a slight bubble in the main aft of the mast is OK.

These two steps will reduce the pressure on your rudder and increase the forward thrust from the mainsail and you may find that you need less tiller angle and your windward progress improves.

[laanan]

Wow, so much great advice, thanks so much!

To answer some questions:

* It is a swing keel which was down all the way

* I don't think either sail is an original. The genoa is on a roller.

* The foresail telltails were both flying back, although the one closer to me (red) was not as straight back as the one on the far side of the sail. I find it much easier to trim the foresail than the main, or at least it seems more obvious to get the right shape.

* The outhaul is out all the way. In fact, I was worried the main was too flat, because I could see my lazy jack line was distorting its shape. I think I need to loosen the lazy jack lines when I am actually sailing. I them set up so that they are cleated to the mast on one end, and then have a quick release clasp on the boom, so that I can get them down in a hurry if need be. Kind of a DIY jobby (I did the eye splices myself, which was very fun and rewarding).

* I'll have to check the traveler. I I think it was to the leeward, but, for sure that was the last thing I was paying attention to. Every time I go out I "see" more.

* I was **not** much heeled over when I was being pushed leeward. So that must be "lee helm," Right? Easing the main let me stay on course while keeping the tiller centered. Otherwise I had to crank the tiller over (I think to leeward, but I could be misremembering) to keep pointing in the same direction.

* It was very light air the past couple times I have sailed. Lucky to get 5mph (sub question, when the Sailflow app or wind speed on Google says mph, is that equal to knots? So 5mph = 5 knots). I know knots are not quite the same as land miles when measured, but how does that relate to knots vs mph for wind speed???

* I think I am letting my headsail get too big. To make a long story short, my wife attacked a tree with the mast, and in the process of fixing everything, I had to take apart and repair the roller for the genoa. I ended up having to cut and bend the roller line back together, which limits how far it will come out before the knot hits the block (it is a zepplin knot, so kinda big). I guess that wasn't so short, but the point is, I've been lazy, and so I am not able to cleat the genoa roller line in such a way that the genoa is smaller than fully extended. Question: How big should the genoa be? Should it come past the forward shrouds or stop at the forestays (these are the forwardmost stays that have quick releases)?

* Another question. I read that sometimes it helps to rake the mast forward, but I don't know how to do that. I can loosen the backstay, but then the main gets stuck on the backstay when coming about. Without the roller drum setup, it seems like it would be easy to reset the tension on the forestay (or jib stay...help me with the right word here...), but with the roller drum, you have to take the damn thing totally apart to get at the thing that let's you add tension. Sorry for lack of the right term for that thing right now...The thing you can screw tighter to increase the wire tension.

Thanks again!

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by laanan

Wow, so much great advice, thanks so much!

To answer some questions:

* It is a swing keel which was down all the way

* I don't think either sail is an original. The genoa is on a roller.

* The foresail telltails were both flying back, although the one closer to me (red) was not as straight back as the one on the far side of the sail. I find it much easier to trim the foresail than the main, or at least it seems more obvious to get the right shape.

* The outhaul is out all the way. In fact, I was worried the main was too flat, because I could see my lazy jack line was distorting its shape. I think I need to loosen the lazy jack lines when I am actually sailing. I them set up so that they are cleated to the mast on one end, and then have a quick release clasp on the boom, so that I can get them down in a hurry if need be. Kind of a DIY jobby (I did the eye splices myself, which was very fun and rewarding).

* I'll have to check the traveler. I I think it was to the leeward, but, for sure that was the last thing I was paying attention to. Every time I go out I "see" more.

* I was **not** much heeled over when I was being pushed leeward. So that must be "lee helm," Right? Easing the main let me stay on course while keeping the tiller centered. Otherwise I had to crank the tiller over (I think to leeward, but I could be misremembering) to keep pointing in the same direction.

* It was very light air the past couple times I have sailed. Lucky to get 5mph (sub question, when the Sailflow app or wind speed on Google says mph, is that equal to knots? So 5mph = 5 knots). I know knots are not quite the same as land miles when measured, but how does that relate to knots vs mph for wind speed???

* I think I am letting my headsail get too big. To make a long story short, my wife attacked a tree with the mast, and in the process of fixing everything, I had to take apart and repair the roller for the genoa. I ended up having to cut and bend the roller line back together, which limits how far it will come out before the knot hits the block (it is a zepplin knot, so kinda big). I guess that wasn't so short, but the point is, I've been lazy, and so I am not able to cleat the genoa roller line in such a way that the genoa is smaller than fully extended. Question: How big should the genoa be? Should it come past the forward shrouds or stop at the forestays (these are the forwardmost stays that have quick releases)?

* Another question. I read that sometimes it helps to rake the mast forward, but I don't know how to do that. I can loosen the backstay, but then the main gets stuck on the backstay when coming about. Without the roller drum setup, it seems like it would be easy to reset the tension on the forestay (or jib stay...help me with the right word here...), but with the roller drum, you have to take the damn thing totally apart to get at the thing that let's you add tension. Sorry for lack of the right term for that thing right now...The thing you can screw tighter to increase the wire tension.

Thanks again!

Lee helm is the forces on the boat trying to rotate it downwind. You have to hold the tiller to the lee of center to go in a straight line.

Leeway is the boat sliding sideways.

The centerboard or keel is an underwater wing. In light airs you need to get the boat moving before pointing high. The closer the sails are to the centerline, the more they are pushing the boat sideways rather than forward. If most of the force of the sails is sideways, especially in light air, and you are not moving very fast, the angle of attack of the water on the keel is too great and the keel/centerboard stalls and the boat mostly goes sideways. Get speed up first, then sheet in and point. Now that you are moving the angle of attack is lower on the keel.

It's fun to do this on a windsurfer, you can really see and feel the effects when the centerboard stalls out.

[ChrisJHC]

One more thing to check is how close to the wind are you trying to point?

I’d aim for no more than 40-45 degrees off the wind to start.

[NedX]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Sometimes with boats with lots of sail area you have to both turn up during or before the wind hits (watch the wind on the water to know when to turn up) and ease the mainsheet.

The best racers can keep their boats sailing at the same angle of heal through most any gust by during both.

Its takes lots of practice to get it down though.

As a racer and when you are near say 25 other boats all headed up wind in gusty conditions, you can quickly see the differences in the skippers .......that is as long as the other things are right like mast rake, mast prebend, batten thickness, traveler position, sail age, etc

I was just about to suggest that you check out the trim of the boats sailing past you.

Also, does this happen in all conditions? Or just in certain conditions? If it's happening in a stiff breeze, you could also be overpowered, which explains the weather helm and the rounding up.

Also, are you using your traveler? That has a significant effect, depending on conditions (often, when I'm going upwind the Soling, which is a racing day sailer, I'm adjusting the traveler more often than the main sheet.) Essentially, in light wind, you'll probably want to bring it all the way over to windward, the goal being to make the sail "deeper" and catch the wind. You put it to leeward in stiff conditions, when you want the wind t spill out of the sail, to avoid being overpowered. So having the traveler all the way to leeward would be an issue in 4 knots of wind.

UPDATE: Weirdly, my post came up after you answered these questions. I guess it took a longer time to type than I thought. Sorry. 5mph is 4.4 knots per hour. That's not a lot of wind, and it's hard to sail upwind in those conditions.

[Sailor 99]

One thing I was always told was don't sheet in the sails too tight. Let the boat breath. The sails should be a nice shape and not flogging but then you let them out a bit and see if you can go faster.

One thing nobody seems to do is look at the boats that are passing them quickly and emulate what they are doing with regards to boom position and sail trim. It is comical.