Rigging replacement costs question

[bailsout]

How accessible to inspection and replacements are the chain plates?

[ZoBe]

I would sail her for a while, depending on the previous owners use, you might get 5 yrs more out of your current rigging. Are there sure signs of wear and tear, rust, obvious stretched areas showing up in uneven strands? Certainly sailing on breezy days a few days a year causes wear differently from Sailing in near gale conditions with regularity...

[DMCantor]

Recognizing that we don't know the exact wording of your contract, in typical contracts the deposit will be returned if the survey discovers a serious defect and the seller declines to fix it or adjust the price. Sorry, but "my rigger said all rigging older than 10 years should be replaced" is not a defect. If he found serious corrosion, cracks in the swages, numerous broken strands, etc., then you might expect to get your deposit back if you walk away. Otherwise, not.

As others have said, there are plenty of boats out there with rigging much older than 10 years.

There are certain things you need to know about a boat before ever signing a contract. How many hours on the engine? What maintenance records are there and what do they show? How old is the rigging? How old are the sails? Was the boat ever in a collision or serious grounding? You can't possibly know what's a fair price without this information. Waiting for the survey to find this stuff out is just asking for trouble.

[billgewater]

Have you considered synthetic rigging as a replacement? With some guidance, you can do all your own splicing. The weight savings can be really considerable. Expensive end fittings and swages are a seriously reduced in number and cost. Also, you can carry in a small bag enough spare rigging to replace anything lost or damaged in use. The materiel cost per m is more but the advantages are considerable. There are lots of items on this forum from experienced sailors about this option.

[Suijin]

Rigging life and how insurance companies view it and how it factors into transactions is a grey area at best. In truth, the standard recommendation is to replace it every 10 years. But if the boat has seen little/light use and has not been in a highly salty environment the rigging could last much, much longer.

When I bought my boat the rigging (rod) was 25 years old and there was no requirement from the insurer to replace it. It passed inspection, although it's age was noted (which was based on the fitting which were clearly of that vintage). I ended up replacing the first time the stick was down simply because that was the logical time to do it and get it out of the way.

The seller's unwillingness to replace something that is not broken and is working as intended is fair. In the US, if anything does not function as stated in the listing description it is fair game for negotiation. In truth you're going to find all sorts of stuff that "should be replaced" after you buy the boat, but that does not mean that it is all reasonable fodder for post-survey negotiation.

Not sure how things work in NZ but your broker should be able to tell you whether you risk losing your deposit if you want to back out of the deal despite not finding a demonstrable flaw in the boat.

[james247]

Originally Posted by Orion Jim

You may have a technicality which would allow you to back out of the contract and have your deposit returned in full. The current owner has no obligation to fix anything or adjust the purchase price unless specifically required by the contract. He can simply bid you good day and send you on your way.

The answer lies with an insurer if it is a condition of insurance then the work must be done or void insurance when the mast falls down. However if the rigger says it's fine and the insurer accepts his advice then there is no issue. Until the mast falls down then hope the rigger has insurance.
Wire lasts longer than 7 to 10 years. If it's truly in good condition. I have a rigger who replaces part of my rigging each year Depending on available adjustment and visual appearance. This is done in pairs obviously.

[Fore and Aft]

If the rigger will issue a rigging certificate to state the rig is ok then you should be fine. But most insurance companies here in Australia like to see the rigging replaced after 10 years.
Honestly just look at the big alloy stick and imagine it crashing down while out for an afternoon sail and hurting someone.
What is interesting is the fact that he has not replaced it already. What else is at the end of its life and needs replacing, sails, halyards, upholstery?
Some yachts I survey the owners have never replaced anything and hope to pass the boat on to some schmuck that then is forever paying to upgrade the boat.
Cheers

[philiosophy]

If you think the seller should take the price of new rig off the agreed to price, you are being unrealistic. As to how long rig lasts...Depends on many things. Not the least of which is use, especially heavy weather use. Corrosian and don’t forget the chain plates. Most insurance companies want rig replaced after 10 years because they want to play it safe. A rig inspection by a reputable company is a good idea and should be at your expence.

[Neptune's Gear]

In NZ, our cat 1 survey (before an international passage) requires all standing rigging to be <10 years old. However, there are many, many local boats that have rigging much older than that.
$7K NZD is not a bad price for a full standing rigging replacement on a 38 ft boat.
If you want to ask specifics about NZ, this site might help Articles - The home of New Zealand sailing - Crew.org.nz its very NZ centric, where as this once tends to be US centric... Look in the Forums section

[Capt Gill]

It seems one major concern is that by not replacing the standing rig will it be a reason for denial of insurance, if so and as the poster indicated it would be a significant drawback, also I believe this would have to be disclosed to future buyers. It would be wise to get a written insurance estimate from a reputable company in order to have some factual basis for your concern.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

It seems one major concern is that by not replacing the standing rig will it be a reason for denial of insurance, if so and as the poster indicated it would be a significant drawback, also I believe this would have to be disclosed to future buyers. It would be wise to get a written insurance estimate from a reputable company in order to have some factual basis for your concern.

One has to wonder what the surveyor is going to say. If he does not know the age and finds no fault, then I would think the Ins Company wouldn't balk. But another question is, must you buy anything more than liability insurance?

[Tillsbury]

Some insurers in NZ will not cover rig failure if the rig is over 9 years old. Pretty much every boat you buy in NZ is likely to be beyond this, apart from new ones -- the vast majority for sale have never had their rig replaced or if they have before 2009. Unless the advert specifically tells you about the date of rigging replacement you can assume it hasn't been done, so you did know the condition of the rig before you put in your offer.

However, many contracts for sale and purchase in NZ do allow you to withdraw after the survey "in complete and unfettered discretion" and get your deposit back, for a specific reason or for no reason at all. Read your contract carefully. You may have to send over a copy of the report, but you don't need a reason.

I have switched from worrying about the rig to building in the cost of a new one. Local riggers have quoted me "under $10k" for a complete re-rig of a 45-footer, with me doing nothing other than handing them the keys. Your quotes sound reasonable. In my opinion, I'd rather make an offer assuming this cost, and then be happy in the knowledge that my boat had brand new rigging professionally installed, and would be covered by insurance for the next 9 years without a problem.

I did recently see a boat that had allegedly had its rigging replaced in full in 2017. The bottlescrews were at their extreme extent. There was surface rusting at the bottom of the wire and throughout the bottlescrews and fittings. Now, I'm no rigger, but when I bought a new boat its condition visually was "as new and shiny" after three years or even more. You just never know.

With the rig, certainty in my mind is more important than a few bucks...

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

If you want to ask specifics about NZ, this site might help Articles - The home of New Zealand sailing - Crew.org.nz its very NZ centric, where as this once tends to be US centric... Look in the Forums section

Hi Neptune's Gear, I've been trying to register on the crew.org.nz for some time, but haven't had any response either originally or to follow-up questions. Is it still maintained? It seems to be an Auckland-specific closed group.

[Capt Gill]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

One has to wonder what the surveyor is going to say. If he does not know the age and finds no fault, then I would think the Ins Company wouldn't balk. But another question is, must you buy anything more than liability insurance?

Just saying, IF insurance is a must have for the buyer THEN find out if the ins. co. will insure with the existing rigging (no need to guess), if no THEN figure the cost and try to work it out with the seller; seems simple. If the ins. co. gives an ok then it seems the onus is on the buyer to replace or not.

[fxykty]

Our UK-based insurer for a boat located in NZ has a statement in its coverage note that the standing rigging is less than 10 years old. I asked our broker about it (Baileys) and they said the clause means that the boat has coverage regardless of the age of the rigging but if we claim for mast or rigging damage we will not be covered if we can’t prove the age of the rigging is less than 10 years. Fortunately for us we have an invoice from 2010 showing the rig was done then.

Seems to me that the actuaries have worked out the risk and that it must go up significantly after 10 years for them to have such a condition. Surely there isn’t a grand conspiracy between insurance companies and riggers?

Relative to the cost of the boat the rigging is trivial. Check out the Delos video where they did their own re-rigging in Thailand I think, if you think of doing it yourself. Otherwise, get quotes outside of Auckland from riggers in Whangarei and Tauranga for example for more reasonable prices.

As others have said, your original offer should have considered rigging age, same as sails, engine hours, batteries, etc. If no rig problems other than age found at survey you can’t use that as a defect to lower your offer. Check your contract carefully.

BTW, it’s been a few days since your post so what did you decide to do?