Recommendation request: bluewater cruiser models that would meet our needs?

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

PS - Doors on a boat: my 34 footer has doors for the two sleeping cabins. Something doesn't sound right about not finding one on larger boats. Also, please consider that doors on a boat are not for anything more than visual privacy. Noise travels. There are no soundproof rooms. Houses have soundproof walls and doors. Boats simply do not. You may find that your son will get in the dinghy when you and missus "engage" and he'll do his thing when you're off swimming. That's the reality of living on a boat.

There's more to it than that, though!

It's a small detail but something we were talking about ourselves last weekend, so I'll chime in with our own experiences: when the children close the doors to their cabins (we have two cabins with two children per cabin), the sound isolation is quite remarkable -- even better than at home!

I'm not an acoustical engineer, but I suspect that this might be due to the curved and irregular shapes of the cabins, and the fact that the mattresses, pillows, and sheets provide a lot of the total surface/reflective area.

Short comments about some other things:

- The less "stuff" the better (most boats go faster as well ), so a good time to get excited by a lifestyle of "less". Regarding food, spares, etc, a lot comes down to where you intend to sail and how far away from civilization you intend to go and be while retaining an adequate amount of self-sufficiency.

- As many others have said, an industrially built boat (like the Beneteaus, Jeanneaus) can work just fine for you. There are tons of arguments about 'bluewater vs production' on the internets, and then there are the people who just sail with them and do great. (The lavagabondes, for example, started out with a Beneteau.)

(See, I even found a Hanse over there! https://www.yachtworld.fi/veneet/200...e-400-3817647/ )

- Some people love the refitting part of boat ownership (and I understand that!), but I'm among the people who'd rather not touch it at all, and rather just be out there, sailing. (Hence, my interest in standards, industrial manufacturing processes etc. With boats, of course, having a deeper understanding of how it is configured is needed for the self-sufficiency part, and that is better acquired when you have to dig deeper into it.) So, for my part, not being a refitting lover, I would put my money into a boat that doesn't require an extensive amount of work to be done to get it ready.

- Good luck! All will be great

[Jim.b.mack]

Here is a 43 to look at just for fun. I have a 34 C&C and look at this 43 C&C every other day for the last year and one day might buy it if someone doesn't beat me to it.

You have an awesome dream.

Cheers Jim

https://www.harrisellis.com/Listings...oat_id=2429505

[fc59]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

the sound isolation is quite remarkable -- even better than at home!

How old is the general design of say a First 42, and how old is the general design of a Hanse 388 ?

There are improvements over time in EVERY design aspect. Otherwise boatbuilders would never be able to sell newer yachts.

Just compare engine noise and sound proofing on both boats...

[nuku34]

TrentePieds:
I’m not slagging you, but my experience of full-time off-shore cruising for 17 years is that engines get used for more than just in and out of a harbour.
They get used at sea when you get stuck in a calm patch and need to beat a nasty weather system that is coming at you; they get used when you are in a calm patch and get tired of slatting around for hours in a rolling sea; they get used for topping up batteries; they get used for going in and out of island passes, they get used for helping to claw you off a lee shore; they get used for taking the strain off the anchor when you get hit with 60kts in the middle of the night and start dragging; if you sail in the Pacific Northwest you will use the engine to buck 5-6 kt currents, and so on.
We had an 80hp Mercedes in a 14 ton steel 12m “Joshua” full-keel double ender ketch and there were a few times that 80hp saved the boat. Sure we could get that boat up to hull speed in flat water with no wind with only 25hp, but what about manoeuvring in a tight marina with 25kts of wind on the beam?
In my book, 50hp is minimum for a 45ft medium displacement cruiser.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by nuku34

TrentePieds:
I’m not slagging you, but my experience of full-time off-shore cruising for 17 years is that engines get used for more than just in and out of a harbour.
They get used at sea when you get stuck in a calm patch and need to beat a nasty weather system that is coming at you; they get used when you are in a calm patch and get tired of slatting around for hours in a rolling sea; they get used for topping up batteries; they get used for going in and out of island passes, they get used for helping to claw you off a lee shore; they get used for taking the strain off the anchor when you get hit with 60kts in the middle of the night and start dragging; if you sail in the Pacific Northwest you will use the engine to buck 5-6 kt currents, and so on.
We had an 80hp Mercedes in a 14 ton steel 12m “Joshua” full-keel double ender ketch and there were a few times that 80hp saved the boat. Sure we could get that boat up to hull speed in flat water with no wind with only 25hp, but what about manoeuvring in a tight marina with 25kts of wind on the beam?
In my book, 50hp is minimum for a 45ft medium displacement cruiser.

Our 40 foot Jeanneau has a 55HP engine - it has served us well adn been big enough - although getting in and out of the passes in the tuamotus was a little worrying. We could easily have used an extra 20HP or so.

If you are going serious blue water - get the biggest engine they heve in the program - not the smallest

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "Can easily get a great cruiser in the 20 year old production boat world, all fit out, for $100k that would take you anywhere other the poles."

Quite so. Last summer a Fast Passage 39 came into our marina. Straight in from a circumnavigation. Fully found, ready and eager to go again the day tomorrow. Just add water :-)! She sold for Can$65K!

This is what SailboatData has to say:

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fast-passage-39

Only sailed one once, but what a joy :-)!

She's effectively a "tudor" Boy in the V- berth forward. That would be his kingdom.
Mom'n'dad in the (tight) port side quarter berth. But, hey! - how much room do you need to catch a few zees - or whatever :-)? Kittykat gets the starboard side quarter berth as is meet and just according to naval tradition :-)

Quote: "Any tips on how to assess stowage volume?"

Yes. Same as always. Do an inventory. Even speculatively. Measure stuff. Label it properly. Pack it tight. When living aboard, cubic inches count. What are the dimensions of the rigging screw that attaches your backstay to its tang? 9" long,? 1" in "diameter"? How many do you expect to break on a trip from San Francisco to Honolulu? Ask Ann. Ask Carsten. They know cos they've seen the movie.

You'll have a diesel of about 50HP. Well maintained diesels live forever. Could you fix one if it breaks? Probably not, at least not while at sea, so don't worry about it. They don't break if they are not turning. You wouldn't be using the iron wind in the open ocean anyway. When cruising you only use it for going in and out of harbour, so if yours breaks, you'll be near a source of spare parts. Best to have a "marinized" industrial diesel such as a Kubota. The marine version is called "Beta". Kubota parts are quite cheap and are available in even the remotest corners of the globe, I'm told. I would shun Volvos. Parts costs for Volvos are right up there with Swedish tax rates. No need to carry parts, then. Therefore no need for mechanic's tools worth mentioning. All the tools I need fit in two 9" x 9" x 21" boxes. But then, I'm only 30 feet. And a Luddite :-)

But since you are an engineer, Pillowfort, exponential equations hold no terrors for you. So think on this: When you double a boat's length you increase it's displacement by a factor of 8 because it's a three dimensional body, i.e. by 2 x 2 x 2. Close enuff for government work. Now, it happens that most people can find the bux to BUY a boat. It's finding the bux to OWN a boat that's the trick. Take displacement as a proxy for annual ownership costs. Then, if boat "A" has twice the length of boat "B", boat "A" will cost about EIGHT TIMES as much to own as boat "B". Right up there with the propagation equation for Covid19!

That equation cuts the other way too. SHRINK you requirements (wishes, dreams, predilections - whatever) and the annual ownership costs shrink accordingly If boat "A" above is your reference point, then boat "B" above will gobble up only 1/8 of the annual ownership costs that boat "A" will! Worth thinking about!

While I'm sounding off: I personally would go for a ketch. Many would prefer a cutter. The two kindsa rig handle about the same. Until Neptune gets cranky. Then, for antiquities like me, a ketch is easier to handle and much more comfortable. When Neptune is being friendly and life is easy, the ketch is more fun because there are more strings to pull. You gotta do something to keep boredom at bay ;-)!

As ever,

TP.

The Fast Passage 39 is certainly a proven design. There are two on the west coast in the OP's budget (one with a windvane too!).

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for...sage/model-39/

[Mad Multi]

That's a tough one for sure and there are a million right answers. I've boats for 40 years and have rebuilt motors, rewired entire houses, and know enough about glasswork to be proficient.

We just finished a very similar process, we started looking at production boats and were pretty much settled on the Beneteau, Sun Odesy type modern production boats but when we went and saw ones in the 10-year-old range they were worn out, everything on them was built with the modern template of just enough... And just enough is never enough in the really-real world because as soon as something big and hard and heavy and fast comes along it pushes "Just Enough" right on down to "not quite enough" and then the fatigue starts and the wear starts. Honestly, I started to truly believe that even though they were cheapish they were declining in price yearly for a good reason, and they were going to kill me on maintenance and repair I mean holy crap these things had gone from $250k to under a $100g's in ten years if that does not speak volumes then you not listening... For comparison, the "Old Scool" well-built boats sell for what they sold for new still today in some cases :-) Also talking to owners the big complaint was that when you had to replace something, the things at either end that the new thing had to attach to were not robust enough to handle any upgrade without being rebuilt and the chain reaction left you with a keel to rebuild everything from or just keep putting "just enough" level of gear back in for the next round of slowing falling apart.

Also while they were "roomy" they had no stowage and I just could not figure out where the hell to stow **** for offshore passages.

Anyway, 2 years later as our purchase date approached we were down another rabbit hole looking at pre-2000 boats and found a gem in a 1984 Baba 40 which we just closed on. Now don't get me wrong these boats have their own problems but the overall build quality was miles above the production boats and at least if you fix and rebuild to a good standard it will stay that way, it also had large tankage (125 US gallon diesel and 160-gallon water) and enough stowage everywhere to not only outfit for a crossing but to be able to do so with good weight distribution.

Now I have to add a disclaimer here, the purchase price was $150k CDN but it was also truly a legacy boat, a very meticulous retired guy had to spend 3 times that much with professional yards in Lunenberg and Chester bringing the boat basically to commercial standards, with redundant systems on EVERYTHING and all it needed $25k for dingy, a suite of electronics and some solar to make it complete.

Although it won't point quite as high, and won't go quite as fast, it is no slouch and probably one of the best-designed full keel boats in that era... There are a few around but they tend to sell quickly but is definitely a boat to have on your radar...

[gulfcoastsailor]

Looks like you missed this one:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...om-38-3739828/

Don’t poop on the size cos a bigger 38 was never built. I had gone iso Freedoms over 40 but none showing in the PNW. Limit Freedom searches to 80s & 90s sloops only!

As a devout Freedom fan and owner I can offer lots of positives on the line.

Good luck!

[JPA Cate]

When you get to comparing boats, Google on <sailboatdata.com> , and you can compare vessels there.

However, you really need to see lots of boats, and try out the berths, especially if your husband is tall. Guys over about 6'4" seem to have a lot of threads here about their search for a boat they can stand up in.



Ann

[TrentePieds]

Nuku:

I'd never think you are “slagging” me. But I might think you are missing the point just a little ;-) On the other hand, you have helped our new friend Pillowfort by advancing a view opposed to what I said.

So let's start by freaking her out. She is, I judge, only just beginning to get her head round such things as required horsepower related to displacement, and about a skippers' options in given circumstances.. You may have seen this video but it's odds on that PF hasn't :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q3cHJyomlo

OBVIOUSLY you are absolutely right in what you say, but let's help PF along by taking baby steps. Let's not lay the advanced stuff on 'er just yet :-)!

First job for thee and me and for CF generally is to to help her to think constructively, rationally, linearly about what her NEEDS are to get her from being the novice she is now to the competent skipper I'm sure she'd like to be. Even if she won't ever go anywhere near the Greymouth bar :-)

All the best

TP

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by pillowfort

Hi there! I'm so happy to have found this site. It's been a wealth of information so far.

We're shopping for a bluewater cruiser and I hoped you folks might be able to tell me what to keep an eye out for.

Some information about our requirements:
- Ideally ~45ft (+/- 3ft); there are 2 adults, my 10yo son, and our cat
- Two cabin (both need to have a door)
- Currently torn between sloop or ketch, either could work
- Slight preference for stability over speed--we would still like to be able to arrive at our destinations, of course
- Manageable for a couple to sail (perhaps with the assistance of some upgrades--though we don't want to be totally reliant on that)
- Good amount of stowage for food and spare parts/maintenance supplies. We'd like the freedom to explore, and not be always worrying about the next resupply.
- Planning to add a modest watermaker, but would still like to have at least 100g water tank.
- A smaller fuel tank might work out okay? We're not in a hurry to maintain a strict schedule, but obviously don't want to be caught in the wrong area during cyclone/hurricane/typhoon season!

We're hoping to spend around 60-100k on the boat itself, with a solid refitting buffer beyond that. Some we can do ourselves, some we won't attempt (rigging is one that comes to mind).

What makes/models should we keep an eye out for? We're on the west coast (PNW), so makes that are more common out here are especially helpful.

Thanks so much for any insight you can provide! We appreciate it.

Kelly Peterson 44. In your price range. Almost 39ft waterline, so not a slug and a comfort ratio of 38+. I've seen them as low as $50,000, up to $125,000. Great boat. Designed just for cruising.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/kelly-peterson-44

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by waterman46

The KP will sail better but it has a foam core so be careful.

I had not heard that of the 46 but I know for sure that the KP44's hull is not cored and the deck is marine ply core.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Kelly Peterson 44. In your price range. Almost 39ft waterline, so not a slug and a comfort ratio of 38+. I've seen them as low as $50,000, up to $125,000. Great boat. Designed just for cruising.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/kelly-peterson-44

Yeah, that's my vote too. I loved the one I sailed (chartered) many years ago.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yeah, that's my vote too. I loved the one I sailed (chartered) many years ago.

My friend has a 1981 which was the last year for them. That was the year they used bronze ports. No expense has been spared. He got rid of the Perkins for a Yanmar, all the latest electronic. He sailed it to Mexico, then out into the Pacific blue. He and his family was gone for 4 years. I recently helped him build a hard dodger. All custom opening framed windows.

[Hooked]

Originally Posted by pillowfort

Good points, thanks! Yeah, ultimately, I'm sure we'd rather do less refitting than more. I'll start asking around about surveyors.

I used John Sanford. My buddy just used him as well. Great guy.
https://sanfordmarinesurveys.com/welcome.html