Recommendation request: bluewater cruiser models that would meet our needs?

[pillowfort]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

I suggest you read the contribution made in posts above by AnnCate and by CarstenB. Both have considerable experience crossing oceans, and, more importantly from your point of view – so your stated desiderata tell me – experience of living aboard for prolonged periods.

I definitely am reading all of this thread carefully, and appreciate everyone's time in commenting. I realize that there's a wealth of experience to draw from here.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Perhaps you might like to consider this: The total “floor area” of the sole in a boat like Radiant is about 250 square feet as opposed to the floor area of a very small 2-bedroom apartment which might be about 750 square feet. The interior volume of the little apartment will be about 6,000 cubic feet, and that of boat about 2,000 cubic feet. But note, please: A LOT of that volume is contained in lockers that are not habitable! On both parameters, even quite a big and luxurious boat, clocks in at a third of a small apartment, though you should probably count on the space in which a human body can actually move below decks in the boat being only about TENTH of what it is in a small apartment! Clearly, then, as Carsten points out, you may have to reduce your list of things to bring, i.e. you may have to revise your expectations. Drastically.

Therefore I would suggest that as a useful exercise you work up a meal plan. I find that two weeks' worth of daily menus is sufficient. That the same dish is put under my nose two weeks after the last time I saw it is perfectly fine with me. When you have a built the meal plan, deconstruct it. List all the ingredients for each dish along with the quantities of the ingredients required. Now, but not before, will you know how much stowage you need for the ship's larder. Provisioning for a long voyage then becomes a simple matter of multiplication. A ten week voyage (say six weeks anticipated, four weeks extra for safety's sake) will then be the basic provisioning list times 5. It's really that simple. Now you are no longer “taking a stab”. Now you KNOW.

That's fair. I'm sure that's an exercise most folks go through when outfitting for a long trip.

Also, appreciate the idea for provisioning as an exercise. I have a couple of books that go into it, but I've been focused on other aspects. Perhaps to not have a sense of how much space food would take up is to put the cart before the horse

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

For example: What is your rationale for the 100 gallon potable water tank? Are you expecting your water maker to break down? In days of yore, in days of wooden ships and iron men, the emergency ration of water was half a pint per man per day. 100 gallons is 1,600 half pints. That's the emergency ration for 3 people for more than 500 days, i.e. a year and a half!! It won't take you that long to either fix the water maker or reach port! So here is one desiratum you can safely review. Make a “water budget” just like you lay a meal plan. And while you are at it, lay a “power budget” - a budget for the electricity you will use. And for where you will get it from.

Power budget is definitely in progress. (I'm an embedded systems engineer that was raised by an electrical contractor, so of course that was the first place my mind went )

Water budgeting is trickier. When we desert camp, we usually bring 2 gallons/person/day. Everything I've read so far has said to expect an average of 4-6 gallons of water usage per day, per person, but maybe that's more luxury than we'll really even need. We're comfortable living simply. It's so hard to know which advice to listen to on this stuff, because there's the set of standards luxury cruisers have, and then there's a more frugal attitude. We want to take a more frugal approach.

As a mom, I'd prefer not to have my child go on old school sailor water rations unless the situation is emergent. But we're not planning on taking 15 minute showers either.

I see your point about the watermaker/tank size! I'll re-evaluate that criteria. The watermaker I've got my eye on seems pretty straightforward to maintain, low power draw (4A @ 12V with 1.5gph output), and can be operated manually in case of catastrophic electrical system failure.

Hey, thanks for all this insight, it's been very informative! Appreciate your time.

[pillowfort]

Originally Posted by Scrimshaw4

The best way to determine the total cost (purchase plus upgrades) is to have the boat surveyed. Other wise you could get a $70K that needs $100K vs a &125K that only needs $15K. If you don't have enough to get what you need right now then wait and save for the one you can afford that meets your use criteria. Also understand that it is a sellers market right now and prices are inflated due to COVID. JMHO

Originally Posted by SeaStory

The thing about a $150k boat needing $50k of refit is you find out much of that in the survey stage and decide whether to renegotiate or walk away. The survey often misses something, but it should keep you from major surprises (I mean finding our anchor locker rotted out was a bit of a shock, but I have never seen a surveyor take all the chain out to inspect the locker itself). Be sure you find the surveyors in your area that the sellers and dodgy brokers hate. Heck, if you can figure this out now, it would be a decent way to filter out brokers to find one that would be best to work with you. If they say something about that guy being too picky, they are probably more interested in closing a deal than helping you get the right boat.

Good points, thanks! Yeah, ultimately, I'm sure we'd rather do less refitting than more. I'll start asking around about surveyors.

[Tayana42]

Pillowfort, you have gotten good advice already and some interesting suggestions. Like MJH and Scubaseas, my choice is a Tayana V 42. I have the aft cockpit model. 150 gallon water tanks, 130 gallon fuel tanks, 2 good cabins with doors, one head with separate shower stall, plenty of stowage (although as TrentePieds points out it’s not as roomy or convenient as an apartment). There are boats that will meet your needs and can be purchased within your budget but everything depends on condition. Learn as much as you can about doing your own initial survey but find a good professional surveyor to evaluate any boats that make your final cut.

[PuttingDoctor]

My opinion like most prior is slanted toward my experience.... Irwin center cockpit models from 43 to 46 and maybe even the 52 are large, heavy and comfortable cruisers. I started with the 38 and now live aboard my 46’ ketch.
I also administer the Facebook group for Irwin and invite you to join our almost 2k members.
Good luck with your search! Fair winds!
Glen

[pillowfort]

Originally Posted by carstenb

We have been blue water cruising for the past 5 years on a 40 foot Jeanneau Sun Fast.

If you think you will have problems with stowage on a 42 foot boat - maybe you need to rethink what you will bring.

Thanks for your message--totally fair. And to be honest, we were just eyeballing it and felt like it was on the line of doable. Maybe I'm overthinking how many spare parts and redundancies are really necessary. Any tips on how to assess stowage volume?

Thanks for the make/model recommendations!

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by pillowfort

Haha, you're not wrong there. I'm looking at a Beneteau First 42 at the moment for around 80k that seems like it's been well maintained and might fit the bill?

OP wants a good ocean boat for short-handed crew, easily handled and rugged. My apologies to the B and J owners, who have some beautiful boats, but Beneteau 1st lacks a lot of the features of a well designed cruising boat. The deck plan show "pinched ends" like the old IOR designs. The 1st, as well as the Atlantic 40 mentioned in a previous post, has flatish hull forward (will pound), short fin bolt-on keel (shallow bilges means small tanks, keel bolt questions), skegless rudder (exposed to any debris or grounding) and inboard chainplates (deck leaks). I notice the Bene 1st has very little view from inside the cabin, and not even a short bowsprit for an anchor roller. The reverse transom means you lose a tremendous amount of space below and in small or non-existent storage lockers aft.


For privacy you probably want a center cockpit boat. There are many old charter boats you can pick up for less than 80K. Aside from those, you might ask about Kelly-Peterson 46 or Morgan 46, both of which have none of the negative features I listed above. The KP will sail better but it has a foam core so be careful. M46 is built solid like a tank but slow. Spend about 40K and have new rigging, sails, reefer and watermaker, maybe a new autopilot too. You may also be replacing deck hatches and/or portlights - don't scrimp there as your safety is involved.

The rig itself is not that important - if you find everything else you want, it will still sail as long as the rags aren't shot. You might like a ketch but after owning one for many years I'd prefer a cutter for better sailing ability upwind. We added a detachable forestay to our ketch and it's very useful in brisk weather.

[sailorboy1]

Man there are so many many great boats in the OPs size and price range it is silly. The real problem here is like most "bluewater" dream boat threads everyone gets all hung up on books written 30 years ago! Can easily get a great cruiser in the 20 year old production boat world, all fit out, for $100k that would take you anywhere other the poles.

And they will have at least 2 cabins on opposite ends of the boat to get your wild thing on!

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by pillowfort

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I see your point about the watermaker/tank size! I'll re-evaluate that criteria. The watermaker I've got my eye on seems pretty straightforward to maintain, low power draw (4A @ 12V with 1.5gph output), and can be operated manually in case of catastrophic electrical system failure.

............

Good advice so far.


This is another "experience counts" beginner's concept.


From experience from my friends who have cruised (I've only done coastal cruising) the larger WMs use more power but they provide a lot more GPH. Their conclusion is that listening to a WM gets real old, real quick. A bigger one can often make more water per hour resulting in less overall power use. I suggest some more research on this on your part. Good luck.


PS - Doors on a boat: my 34 footer has doors for the two sleeping cabins. Something doesn't sound right about not finding one on larger boats. Also, please consider that doors on a boat are not for anything more than visual privacy. Noise travels. There are no soundproof rooms. Houses have soundproof walls and doors. Boats simply do not. You may find that your son will get in the dinghy when you and missus "engage" and he'll do his thing when you're off swimming. That's the reality of living on a boat.

[JPA Cate]

Pillowfort,

As you consider volume in a boat, think about how much space to allocate for sleeping, vs. awake time. [I had thought I wanted a walk around bed in an aft cabin, but Jim managed to convince me that it was too much space allocated to somewhere we would only be 8 hrs. a day. And there are other problems, related to security in the bunk on passages.] We are partial to boats with aft cockpits; U-shaped galley; only need one head, though you may need 2, for the litter box will have to go somewhere it won't slide around. We prefer handling the boat from aft, and ventilation to the aft cabins is via opening ports, on the outside and the cockpit side; for hot places, one still wants to be able to stir the air with a fan [one per cabin and 2 in the saloon]. We like having it open plan. Look at New Zealand built custom boats, to get "the look". One person's cozy is another's "too cramped". The advice to look at boats till you're sick of doing it is good: learn the market, but also learn your preferences. It is just as individual as choosing a life partner.

For foods, we always found it easier to stock staples, spices and condiments than "one box meals". Current boat has no freezer but a small drop-in fridge, which we density pack. Many cruisers commit to particular containers that fit their boats' spaces, and repack essentials into them, rather than retaining grocery store packing. Many items you're used to refrigerating do not actually require it.

For water consumption, we plan on 1/2 gal/day/person in hot places, but can get by on less. Our first long crossing, we brought a separate 5 gal. container of water, lashed in the cockpit. We never ever needed to get into it! Large tankage is another tradeoff, in that some of that space could be for tools and spares. [Use the Google Custom Search to check out tool storage, because there are many different organizing concepts discussed.] We really used to conserve washing water: it is one place you can scrimp without too much difficulty, because swimming daily keeps you very clean, and a cup of water a day, carefully used, is all you need for the rest.

You won't regret keeping the boat size to 40 ft. or under. [Jim and I lived 18 yrs on our 36 footer.] You don't need timber doors to cabins. Curtains suffice. Lighter weight, too. Personally, I prefer closing doors for heads.]

What you guys need most of all is sea time, even if it means splitting your time and buying a lesser boat now, and then moving up after a year of sailing every minute you can spare. You will learn so very much, your next choice will work better for you. [Jim and I sailed his 30 footer to HI and back to SF, to see if we liked ocean passages, before deciding to buy the 36 footer. Fwiw, we bought this bigger boat in the hopes that our kids would bring their kids to see us. Didn't happen very often.]

Here's a link to Boat Survey 101, written by CF's very own boatpoker: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...1-a-78671.html which you may find useful for organizing your thoughts.

Ann

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Can easily get a great cruiser in the 20 year old production boat world, all fit out, for $100k that would take you anywhere other the poles."

Quite so. Last summer a Fast Passage 39 came into our marina. Straight in from a circumnavigation. Fully found, ready and eager to go again the day tomorrow. Just add water :-)! She sold for Can$65K!

This is what SailboatData has to say:

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fast-passage-39

Only sailed one once, but what a joy :-)!

She's effectively a "tudor" Boy in the V- berth forward. That would be his kingdom.
Mom'n'dad in the (tight) port side quarter berth. But, hey! - how much room do you need to catch a few zees - or whatever :-)? Kittykat gets the starboard side quarter berth as is meet and just according to naval tradition :-)

Quote: "Any tips on how to assess stowage volume?"

Yes. Same as always. Do an inventory. Even speculatively. Measure stuff. Label it properly. Pack it tight. When living aboard, cubic inches count. What are the dimensions of the rigging screw that attaches your backstay to its tang? 9" long,? 1" in "diameter"? How many do you expect to break on a trip from San Francisco to Honolulu? Ask Ann. Ask Carsten. They know cos they've seen the movie.

You'll have a diesel of about 50HP. Well maintained diesels live forever. Could you fix one if it breaks? Probably not, at least not while at sea, so don't worry about it. They don't break if they are not turning. You wouldn't be using the iron wind in the open ocean anyway. When cruising you only use it for going in and out of harbour, so if yours breaks, you'll be near a source of spare parts. Best to have a "marinized" industrial diesel such as a Kubota. The marine version is called "Beta". Kubota parts are quite cheap and are available in even the remotest corners of the globe, I'm told. I would shun Volvos. Parts costs for Volvos are right up there with Swedish tax rates. No need to carry parts, then. Therefore no need for mechanic's tools worth mentioning. All the tools I need fit in two 9" x 9" x 21" boxes. But then, I'm only 30 feet. And a Luddite :-)

But since you are an engineer, Pillowfort, exponential equations hold no terrors for you. So think on this: When you double a boat's length you increase it's displacement by a factor of 8 because it's a three dimensional body, i.e. by 2 x 2 x 2. Close enuff for government work. Now, it happens that most people can find the bux to BUY a boat. It's finding the bux to OWN a boat that's the trick. Take displacement as a proxy for annual ownership costs. Then, if boat "A" has twice the length of boat "B", boat "A" will cost about EIGHT TIMES as much to own as boat "B". Right up there with the propagation equation for Covid19!

That equation cuts the other way too. SHRINK you requirements (wishes, dreams, predilections - whatever) and the annual ownership costs shrink accordingly If boat "A" above is your reference point, then boat "B" above will gobble up only 1/8 of the annual ownership costs that boat "A" will! Worth thinking about!

While I'm sounding off: I personally would go for a ketch. Many would prefer a cutter. The two kindsa rig handle about the same. Until Neptune gets cranky. Then, for antiquities like me, a ketch is easier to handle and much more comfortable. When Neptune is being friendly and life is easy, the ketch is more fun because there are more strings to pull. You gotta do something to keep boredom at bay ;-)!

As ever,

TP.

[scupperz]

I just saw a Hallberg-Rassy 352 for sale in that budget! Gorgeous boat. It's in Tahiti, which is at least the correct ocean! It was refitted in 2016 and looks near perfect to me. Possibly worth looking into, as others have said here they are rare in the Pacific.
HR 352 for sale – Bella

[pillowfort]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

From experience from my friends who have cruised (I've only done coastal cruising) the larger WMs use more power but they provide a lot more GPH. Their conclusion is that listening to a WM gets real old, real quick. A bigger one can often make more water per hour resulting in less overall power use. I suggest some more research on this on your part. Good luck.

Oh... yeah. I hadn't considered how grating hours of daily mechanical noise might be! Appreciate the insight, I'll look around for other options.

[pillowfort]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Here's a link to Boat Survey 101, written by CF's very own boatpoker: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...1-a-78671.html which you may find useful for organizing your thoughts.

Wow! This is pure gold. I'm going to go through it carefully. Thank you!

[zemurray]

For some perspective, we have a 28’ boat that i can easily fit several weeks worth of provisions on. It has a v berth that the wife and I sleep in, and the head door will swing to shut it so that the v berth is separate quarters. My son has come on several trips and sleeps in the quarter berth. I have the boat setup with solar and can stay off the grid for quite some time. The only thing I don't have is a water maker, but we plan on getting a rain man portable unit that can make 20 gallons an hour in the near future. My point is most everything you’ve mentioned thus far as a requirement you could do on a 28 foot boat. That said I wouldn’t want to take it around the world. Also, I can tell you for sure that you will spend as much on a refit as you did on the boat if you want to take an old boat get it in top shape. Don’t underestimate how much its going to cost. Whatever you think it will cost, double it.

You might also consider dropping the center cockpit requirement. That will open a lot of possibilities. If your reason for a CC was the thought it might be more comfortable or safer, its not necessarily. An aft cockpit is lower to the center of gravity which may have less motion than a cockpit thats higher up off the water. A lot depends on the hull design, boat design, etc..

[picklesandjesse]

There's a boat in Brisbane that seems exceptional value that seems to suit most of your needs.
I'm surprised that it hasn't sold but might be because not many want true bluewater vessels at this time. The broker is Jim Stuart, a man who only lists way above average boats.
I suggest you Google Jim Stuart Marine Brisbane and find Gundy Grey. 89k asking ( Oz dollars too! ) that's 68.8 in $US. A delivery skipper would have no hesitation taking this one on. I know a good one.
I doubt that anyone on these few pages would disagree, please feel free. Separate spaces for great sex and masturbation too, seeing as that's a thing. Not much for me these days!!!
Gundy Grey is a legendary Australian racehorse. I've bought 2 boats through Jim Stuart, he's a rare breed these days. Very few boats on his site as good boats are uncommon these days.