Production Mono's - Any to avoid?

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Encapsulated keels were only an exception in time. On old wooden boats, keels were bolted on, on modern fibreglass boats keels are bolted on. This has been a proven method for 120 years+. Why would any manufacturer choose anything else?

Probably in order to sell to people willing to pay more while accepting certain performance concessions to avoid bolted-on keel long-term maintenance issues. Horses for courses.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I respectfully dispute your opinion regarding bolt on keels, it's a to generalised statement. There are many more bolt on keels out there than any other type , they have been around close to a century, are you telling me that Amels aren't structurally up there with the best because they have bolt on keels?

Once again it comes down to the quality of built, eg I believe in having a properly designed keel stub the keel bolts on to, alot don't have this.

Bolt on keel statements are much the same as "catamarans flip" don't get one..... it's just not true.

And I disagree with your disagreement.

True there are many wonderful boats with bolt on keels, and they work just fine,.....but there was a boat off of Galveston a few years ago that capsized, and killed most of its crew. Crevice cracks in the keel bolts caused the keel to drop the moment they needed it the most.

Rare occurrence certainly, easily prevented by pulling keel, and x-ray, and stress test bolts each haulout, absolutely.

But who does that? Who wants yet one more maintenance item to worry about? Who wants to be awake at night wondering when the last time they were checked while at anchor 8 months out in the out islands? Or is the 4 balls of rust in the bottom of the bilge still ok?

If you hual out regularly, keep your boat near a modern shipyard, no problem.

I prefer parts of my boat to be non removable.

Of course I say this, but own a swing keel, and yes it did fall off once, and made life very hard for awhile.

My next boat will be a solid glassed in keel, my rudder might fall off, but the keel will stay put.

[capn_billl]

With a quality modern epoxy in an epoxy hull, very little, but glassed in is better, the extra glass layers give it added strength, and protect it.

[sailorboy1]

I see posts are following the normal and of “production” boat threads and the same old same old fear “facts” get used to try to make a rare event sound like it is dangerous. Yet it is nothing in real life to people to drive and try to walk across a busy street

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I see posts are following the normal and of “production” boat threads and the same old same old fear “facts” get used to try to make a rare event sound like it is dangerous. Yet it is nothing in real life to people to drive and try to walk across a busy street

Shame someone forgot to tell Patrick how dangerous they are, so he took his Bavaria to Iceland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd1-FWonKIs

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MJH

Full keeled boats are still being manufactured by Island Packet, Cabo Rico, and Cape George. Certainly not to the production numbers of the big three (Catalina, Beneteau, and Hunter) but to a smaller market favoring well constructed Bluewater boats.

The below was taken from the Cabo Rico web site, ostensibly written by SAIL Magazine, that provides some valid counter thoughts to the current popularity of modern production designs used for passagemaking...its all a matter of tradeoffs.

PS...Don't kill the messenger.

Just as many of you are not surprised that this manufacture’s PR prompts a response from wingssail, wingssail is just laughing out loud that anyone passes this stuff off as fact. No serious ocean sailor I know, and I’ve met a lot of them and still meet several every year as they pass through Mexico, believes this stuff. Most of the people I do meet who believe and regurgitate it are those with few ocean miles. Of course there are exceptions, and I am sure we will hear from them again this time as this topic always generates passions.

This is solely marketing malarkey. It is not fact based. But for the newbies who might take this at face value, just be aware that there are other opinions out there. Here are mine:

“Like all racing machines, so called modern keel boat hulls are demanding to operate and tend towards dangerous if they are not in their ideal conditions.”

Scare tactic which simply is not true. I have operated many sailboats, modern fin keels and traditional full keel heavy cruisers, and I have found NONE of them are demanding or tend to be dangerous outside of their ideal conditions. My own boat is docile in every condition save when it is vastly overpowered, then it becomes a handful. But keep the sail area moderate and it is not demanding or dangerous and that is my experience over many years and several passages, on several boats.

“Or take an America’s Cup 12 meter mono hull yacht out in 25+ knots of wind and 10-12 foot seas. No big deal with the proper design, but those cup boats will have already had to go home.”

Tell that to the AC sailors in the ’87 cup in Perth. Exactly the conditions cited. They stayed out and raced and the video footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfzSbsXmlJs

shows them pushed to the limit and still quite manageable.

“…in less than ideal conditions. You should feel safe, be comfortable and still go fast. Only a Cabo Rico will do that for you”

ONLY a Cabo Rico? LOL.

“The modern cruising hulls, with their U sections forward and flatter sections amidships, will pound to weather. Their plumb bows will allow a great deal of water onboard and their lack of reserve buoyancy will cause their bows to bury into larger waves. This is sometimes known as submarining. Wet, uncomfortable and down right scary, especially if it turns into a broach.”

“A Cabo Rico doesn't do that. Her clipper bow is simply the best for any sailing out side all out racing or the casual weather window. Waves are sent way out to the side so they doesn't come onboard, and you will probably never bury the bow due to the large amount of reserve buoyancy up high.”

What causes plunging bows is weight in the ends. What I’ve found it that a vessel which is light in the ends will rise up quickly after the bow has been immersed, the boat with a lot of weight and momentum will almost stop before it finally rises back to the next wave.

“no hull delamination, and no parting bulkheads in rough conditions, unlike many boats built today”

MANY BOATS OF TODAY?? This is unsubstantiated.

“…very wide transoms on many boats today that present too much reserve buoyancy to a following sea, and when combined with the pinched, plumb bows can lead to a life threatening broach.”

The boats he is talking about surf down waves and up the next one and broaching is rare with speed they are going, the great steering systems, and the powerful rudders they have.

“…excellent performance in those light fluky airs … Ask a naval architect. He or she will tell you heavier boats go faster in light air.”

I’m sorry, this is laughable.

“This has the disadvantage of the rudder getting air and loosing steerage, particularly downwind in rougher conditions, and the helmsman losing control of the vessel.”

Sorry, just doesn’t happen.

“This is why the racing versions of these hull need two rudders, so one is always more deeply immersed in the water being on the down wind side.”

Wide boats often use two rudders because, when heeled, the normal rudder, and the windward one, will be lifted out of the water. ON really wide boats!

“…exposed rudder that can so easily render you helpless if you hit anything, is imprudent at best and foolhardy at worst.”

Well, I can agree with this, to a point, it would take a strong hit, but it can happen. I’ve not seen it in 55,000 miles.

“Another of many compromises are the very large cockpits that are poorly supported below, creating a problem if a large wave comes down on you; in some cases actually pushing the sole right through the deck.”

And this is especially true if there is an elephant swimming in that wave! But again, I’ve never seen that or heard of it. And anyhow, waves don’t pour down from the sky.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

.......

But who does that? Who wants yet one more maintenance item to worry about? Who wants to be awake at night wondering when the last time they were checked while at anchor 8 months out in the out islands? Or is the 4 balls of rust in the bottom of the bilge still ok?
......

Well you will have many more nights too worry on your full keel slug vs the passage time on a modern underbody.

[Eder]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Well you will have many more nights too worry on your full keel slug vs the passage time on a modern underbody.

My IP blew the doors off quite a few boats Mexico-Marquesas...so I guess not that big a slug. But then who would believe a full encapsulated keel could sail anywhere.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by gonesail

look for the hull to deck joint to be an inboard flange with strong rub rail. also avoid boats with molded pans and shallow bilges .. you want structural members bonded to the hull .. not glued. better that the keel not be bolted on. an anchor platform and locker would be good if you plan on cruising. good luck with your search

What's the difference between "bonded" and "glued"? I always assumed the former was just a fancy synonym for the latter.

[gjorgensen]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Can you please name a current European manufacturer who has a molded keel with lead inside it?

Not European, but worldwide I know of two manufacturers doing encapsulated lead fin keels: Outbound and Kraken. In both cases the keel is part of the FRP hull mold and is then filled with lead. Outbound then through-bolts lead cheeks to either side to form a bulb. I've sailed an Outbound 46 pretty extensively and for a heavy cruiser it performs surprisingly well. Part of that is Schumacher's hull design. Kraken encapsulates the entire lead molding including a bulb inside the FTP molding.

[Zzmeyer]

Not interested in re visiting the production boat bashing. For fun, I looked at boats of about 54 feet in your price range. You will get a ten year newer Bavaria, Jeanneau, Beneteau or Hanse than an Oyster Moody or Amel. I don't know if age levels the playing field. Most would agree that the later are better builds. On the other hand they all use the same engines, watermakers, electronics, generators and much of the rigging. I think you get what you pay for and all, properly equipped and maintained will do you well.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Eder

My IP blew the doors off quite a few boats Mexico-Marquesas...so I guess not that big a slug. But then who would believe a full encapsulated keel could sail anywhere.

Seems a popular thing for IP owners to say how fast they are. The PHRF ratings just don't support it.

Not what the encapsulate keel comment has do with it.

[dfelsent]

One of these things is not like the other. Different boats for different purposes.
Mine is the comfy one on the left. Mike’s (not a cruiser but a lifetime sailor) is the one on the right.

[Eder]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Seems a popular thing for IP owners to say how fast they are. The PHRF ratings just don't support it.

Not what the encapsulate keel comment has do with it.

I wasn't fast...others were slower I guess.


PHRF ratings are better when the swells are less than 10' , breezes are under 25kt, and squalls never leave the horizon.


I think my boat was better in the conditions I was sailing and that's why our trip was faster than most.

[Training Wheels]

Bwahahahaha!!!

Why can’t people just accept that not everyone wants what YOU want, and not make ridiculous claims to justify your decision.