Potential Buyer Asking for a "Test Drive"

[Attikos]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This has nothing to do with having a deposit and everything to do with not having a written contract. With a verbal contract, you (as the buyer) have to prove that the deposit was refundable if you (as the buyer) did not find the test sail satisfactory. Unless you have witnesses...it's your word vs his and the old non-legal saying about possession being 9/10ths of the law comes into play.

No way I would hand over 5 grand without something in writing.

The written document is not the contract. It's evidence of a contract, its terms given presumptive preference should a dispute go to court. A piece of paper does not remove the issue of trust in handing thousands of dollars to a stranger, it can only bolster the case later should you take it before a judge.

If you do, and you get a judgment, you then face the problem of collection. That can and has led to additional court proceedings, all of them running up costs. It can and has led to a successful plaintiff walking away simply because the expense and trouble of getting his money back is more than it's worth.

Yes, as both you and I have mentioned, it's a given you need an escrow agent if you pay a stranger a deposit. He gets a fee. You get more killed time and hassle.

If a seller wants to cull his potential buyers with rigid rules adding trouble and cost, fine. It's his boat. He can do what he wants with it. I wouldn't be among his potentials, that's all, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Attikos

The written document is not the contract. It's evidence of a contract, its terms given presumptive preference should a dispute go to court. A piece of paper does not remove the issue of trust in handing thousands of dollars to a stranger, it can only bolster the case later should you take it before a judge.

If you do, and you get a judgment, you then face the problem of collection. That can and has led to additional court proceedings, all of them running up costs. It can and has led to a successful plaintiff walking away simply because the expense and trouble of getting his money back is more than it's worth.

Yes, as both you and I have mentioned, it's a given you need an escrow agent if you pay a stranger a deposit. He gets a fee. You get more killed time and hassle.

If a seller wants to cull his potential buyers with rigid rules adding trouble and cost, fine. It's his boat. He can do what he wants with it. I wouldn't be among his potentials, that's all, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

Sorry but a written contract is a written contract. Without independent witnesses to verbal changes, it will win out if it comes down to a he said/she said court case. But it will also head off the story as you could point out the language that states the buyer decides if the sea trial /survey is passed. If it's half as bad as described, that should be easy and even most unscrupulous sellers would back down long before it went to court.

Then again, since we are only hearing a 3rd hand story of a verbal contract that the surveyor was not privee to. There may be more to the story...Did the seller disclose the issues that were found by the surveyor prior to the offer being put in? If I am selling a boat and I tell you the port engine needs a rebuild, you put an offer in and the surveyor comes back telling you the port engine won't start...I'm going to argue, you put in the offer knowing that so it doesn't qualify as justification to back out. So if the issues were disclosed ahead of time or were readily obvious (say a bow pulpit hanging at a 45 degree angle due to broken bolts) during the initial inspection (prior to contract) the seller may have been justified.

An escrow would be a better option but you could also put a lien on the boat based on the sales contract. That will likely get the seller's attention as it would muck up any future sale.

You can decide not to participate but someone who refuses reasonable precautions is someone that would leave me very leery of proceeding without those precautions in place as they are probably not what they claim to be.

[jkindredpdx]

When I bought Sedna in 2010, I drove 90 minutes to get where she was docked. The broker encouraged me to deep dive under the vberth, the sole, and lockers. She started the engine. We examined the rigging, hull, chainplates etc. That broker knew boats and provided me valuable service. And all that effort sold me on the boat. I didn't sail her until there was a deposit and we were going over to haul out for the survey. But I didn't ask for a test drive. My point is that providing extra service as the seller goes a long way in winning the sale.

When I sell, I'll try to provide the same consideration that I got. But I admit it will depend on if I like the buyer. If they are nice, friendly, and genuine, I can shove off and be on the water in 5 minutes... just like I was last night... and it will be fun for me too. If they aren't nice, they don't deserve this boat.

[Attikos]

Best of luck selling your boat without a broker, then. You can do it, but your market is restricted. And you should speak with a lawyer, or better yet a law professor, about that point of a document being a contract per se. You're mistaken.

[BluesII]

Food for thought...A: Test drives are not normal. Many people think that buying a yacht is like buying a car, which is, sadly, not the case (our job would be a lot more fun if we could take all the boats we go on for a test drive, that's for sure!). Yacht shopping more closely resembles real estate shopping. You get to go with a broker to look at the goods, put you can't get down and dirty with the yacht until it is under contract. In real estate, you can't survey a home and run all of its systems until you have ratified a contract. A yacht deal works the same way.

There is a lot of liability involved when a person who does not own a yacht takes it out for a spin so test drives normally do not happen until the boat is being surveyed with a professional surveyor on board as well as the owner or his representative to operate the vessel. It is normal practice for purchasers to write a contract contingent on this survey and sea trial. In other words, if you survey the boat and during the sea trial (a boat's version of a test drive), you don't like the ride, then you can simply walk away with no financial risk.

source:https://davetownleyyachts.com/faq/

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

...I have firm intentions of buying my next boat...before I retire the end of 2020...
I am currently setting up a showing for a boat that is an 8 hour drive away, across an international border, and include a hotel room. Yes, he will probably waste an hour or two of his time. Me, I'm just spending a lot of time and money because it's fun...

This is the very definition of a tire kicker.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Attikos

And you should speak with a lawyer, or better yet a law professor, about that point of a document being a contract per se. You're mistaken.

No need to speak to a lawyer. I deal in contracts all the time, including lawyers who review the terms. A signed sales agreement is a contract every day of the week.

Or are you trying to claim some technicality...like a contract is an agreement between two parties and the written signed paper document is just documenting the agreement. If that's the case, have fun playing with technicalities but for all practical purposes, the signed agreement is a contract.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by sailpower

What are some examples of spending differences in buying boats between these two groups?

Probably non. Although the guy that has the money, earned from sweat of his balls, may be a bit different than someone the money was handed to. Old money may have been earned? I unfortunately don't know about old money.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

This is the very definition of a tire kicker.

Ah, I get it. We have been talking around each other because of definition. I am a serious buyer, looking at boats that are potentially "the one." But I have not narrowed it down to just one. As such, I'm looking, learning, narrowing the search -- but none of the dozen or so I've looked at over the last year have met that requirement. I fully expect that we will reach the end of this search before spring. If that is a "tire kicker," then that is what I am. I didn't see that as "tire kicker," but rather diligent shopper. I feel no shame, and perhaps that makes me a bad person.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Ah, I get it. We have been talking around each other because of definition. I am a serious buyer, looking at boats that are potentially "the one." But I have not narrowed it down to just one. As such, I'm looking, learning, narrowing the search -- but none of the dozen or so I've looked at over the last year have met that requirement. I fully expect that we will reach the end of this search before spring. If that is a "tire kicker," then that is what I am. I didn't see that as "tire kicker," but rather diligent shopper. I feel no shame, and perhaps that makes me a bad person.

If you are asking for a sea trial and you haven't even narrowed the search down, let alone being prepared to put down a deposit...Yep, you are a tire kicker not a serious buyer.

Not a bad person but don't be shocked when sellers catch on and treat you as a tire kicker.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you are asking for a sea trial and you haven't even narrowed the search down, let alone being prepared to put down a deposit...Yep, you are a tire kicker not a serious buyer.

Not a bad person but don't be shocked when sellers catch on and treat you as a tire kicker.

Well put. The OP sounded like the prospective buyer had done a reasonably good inspection not a social visit. I believe I would do a "test dive" you do not drive a boat. :smile You drive a car.

[hellosailor]

I think the phrase is "When are you looking to buy?" or "Are you looking to buy today?"

If the answer is "No, but..." then you're maybe a prospective buyer, (legitimately confused or delayed but eventually gonna buy a boat for certain) but if there's nothing that will get you to buy THIS boat TODAY, then you're a tire kicker. A shopper, who is not ready to buy.

And that's where joining a yacht club, a sailing club, or going racing in the weeknight beer can races, really has value. You get to find out how a variety of boats feel and sail, without wasting anyone's time. And in some rare places, you can rent some of them for a day charter as well.

Sometimes it is damned hard to figure out what someone is, when they just don't know what they're looking for "but" something just might be right.

Of course, the games that sellers and brokers play...that's a whole other question.

[Thumbs Up]

Yes! have them do a "test dive", and clean the bottom. Then take them on a test sail. AKA sea trial. (test and trial have the same meaning by the way). As far as a waste of time and brokers are concerned it is true that many brokers set themselves up to get their time wasted by misrepresenting the true condition of the boat in the photos and description. These brokers don't seem to be in a hurry to sell the boats though. They just like having lots good looking listings (maybe makes them more attractive to other sellers looking for a broker). In the price range of the OP's boat, someone is likely to make a spur of the minute decision to buy the boat in which case a spur of the minute test sail could be very effective. The sellers reluctance could be a red flag for the potential buyer. The thing that you have to decide first is if you are talking to a "qualified buyer", because if you are not, then you will have zero chance of selling them the boat! I made this mistake myself although nothing bad came of it and I enjoyed the sail. He said he wanted the boat, we agreed on the price, only one "small" problem though. He doesn't have the money! (I think that he is still trying to raise the money but I have given up on him). As far as the seller wasting his time, maybe it is a waste of time to show the boat without sailing it because going for a sail is more likely to result in a sale. But maybe the OP is selling because he doesn't like sailing, doesn't have an easy time taking the boat out or had a bad experience but I think that we lost the OP a long time ago and that this has turned into a hypothetical discussion.
I am trying to sell my boat. If I have what I believe is a qualified buyer asking if we can take the boat out, I will be reaching to untie the dock lines without hesitation! So if any of you decide to come to Guatemala or Belize to consider my boat and can show that you have most the money in an account then I will gladly take you for a ride. We might even be able to work out a trial period where you live on the boat for a few weeks or a month during which time we would prepare for a passage then sail to a different country (say Belize). In this time you would hopefully fall in love with the lifestyle, the boat, and maybe the location. If not, I would receive compensation (very reasonable though, only a tenth of the cost of a charter). This would be a novel way to sell a cruising boat right! You could buy a 41' catamaran for under 80k, and pay $220. a month to dock it in a very nice marina with a pool, 24hr security, good neighbors, a good breeze, and internet. This area is safe from hurricanes. The reality of cruising on a catamaran in the Caribbean on a budget is that you will probably end up in Guatemala at some point anyway, why not start there? Or just stay there and sail on the big lake with trips to Belize and the Bay Islands. Or retire there! You could live the Jimmy Buffet lifestyle! But please don't make me sail my boat back to Florida just to sell it. I don't like it there!

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you are asking for a sea trial and you haven't even narrowed the search down, let alone being prepared to put down a deposit...Yep, you are a tire kicker not a serious buyer.

Not a bad person but don't be shocked when sellers catch on and treat you as a tire kicker.

More not reading my posts. I have never asked for a sea trial or a test sail. Never been offered either, come to think of it. I have grumbled over beers, and here on the forum (but never to a broker) the real challenge a buyer has in how to learn about how a particular boat behaves underway -- but that's a grumble about reality, not a complaint about sellers.

Sellers won't ever "catch on" even if there was something to catch on to. The entire brokerage system is a functional disaster, and so each viewing is the first time that broker has ever seen me. Unlike a real estate agent, where you can develop a relationship as you work over houses in one or two zip codes, boats are so spread out that no broker will ever go with you to look at boats. It's hard enough as a buyer to drive an hour or two each way to look at a prospect, let alone expect a broker to come with you. Besides, looking at 2-4 boats a month isn't going to ping anyone's radar.

It sure would be nice to develop a relationship with a broker, have them visit two or three boats with us to get a feel for what we like and don't, and then have them pull up listings in the region that meet what we are lookign for. But, it's amazing how many brokers can't discuss the features of the boats we've considered, can barely discuss the features of the boat we are on, and surely aren't going to go on a first visit to a boat 50 miles away. And asking them to do nothing more than coordinate a showing time with the other broker... well, we can do that ourselves.

[shadow]

On one side, not that big of deal with the test drive request. as Long as you, the owner comes along and you have vetted out the potential client, etc.. Just state, for insurance purposes, I need a copy of your license, electric bills, etc.. If he's serious, perhaps even ask for a refundable bond, etc.. Again, you should do your due diligence on the buyers background..

Then go with them, as you love your boat and love showing it off, so no big deal on your end.. etc.. Just feel out the situation as each person will have their own unique circumstance.. I believe if you ask for the above items, that alone will scare off the true tire kickers and fools.. but, if they are serious, they will do so happily..

Good luck, regardless..