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Old 25-02-2020, 06:38   #16
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

We love our pilothouse.

We thought it would be great at anchor being still connected with the wildlife, weather etc while avoiding the rain and cold. However, it has also been great sailing. The view is 360° and visibility is just as good as when outside, in some ways better.

Most, if not all the drawbacks mentioned in the thread have been avoided in this design , for example the windage is, I think less than typical in a yacht with a canvas dogger and/or bimini, the windows are very strong and have easily attached aluminium covers (if one should ever break offshore), we have two 500 x 500 mm hatches in the pilothouse roof for ventilation and we have a very large galley. So I think the drawbacks that have been mentioned in the thread should be considered features of particular yachts (remembering all designs are a compromise), rather than features which are inevitable when selecting a pilothouse.
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Old 25-02-2020, 06:58   #17
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

I love a pilot house, for all the great reasons described, but like all boats they are not suited for all sailors or all conditions. "It Depends."

If you are in the deep tropics the "greenhouse" effect will cook your brains. You need some way of deflecting sun, preferably before it gets through the glass. That tends to knock down a lot of the benefits.

The other issue is for long range bluewater sailing. In really bad weather the windows are vulnerable. Not (as is commonly thought) to being hit by waves, but rather by hitting the water. Let me explain...

Serious damage to above deck structures on cruising yachts can come from boarding waves, but the really serious problems come when the boat falls off a wave, and drops 10, 15, 30 feet, down and hits the water with its side.

The most famous (but hardly the only!) case was during the 1988 Sydney-Hobart race with the sinking of the [I]Winston Churchill[/I.] and the death of several of her crew members.

An EXTREME Event – The compelling, true story of the tragic 1998 Sydney-Hobart Race

I know, storm shutters can help. But most of those I have seen would not survive such an impact.

If I was coastal cruising in the Pacific Northwest, or New England, or Scandinavia, or much of the British Isles, a pilot house would be very, very high on my list. For a circumnavigation? Not so much.
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Old 25-02-2020, 07:14   #18
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

When correctly designed the interior of the boat is protected by a waterproof companionway
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Old 25-02-2020, 07:32   #19
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

Only caution I have on a deck salon rather than pilot house, is that very few deck salon are high enough to give navigation visibility forward.
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Old 25-02-2020, 07:35   #20
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

Yes, for example, take it to the opposite extreme and say ok, no pilothouse with those vulnerable windows and instead we will have a flush deck (old style Swan, or a Race boat).

So that is great, minimal or no windows to potentially get damaged, but instead the crew are constantly getting 'damaged' out there exposed to the elements...

I'm not sure that makes sense either (and I've personally done a lot of miles on flush or semi-flush deck boats).

And I'm not sure an old classic like Winston Churchill is comparative to a new modern design (eg: like Noelex's Bestevaer above).

Having said that I do agree that since a pilothouse or a deck salon can be a major opening in the hull design decisions should be made to take that into consideration.

Noelex's Bestevaer is like that. The pilothouse is not just an addon tacked on top of an open cockpit. Instead it is effectively an integrated part of the hull, with similar scantlings and safety measures included.

I have often stated that normal modern bridgedeck catamarans would be better off if they incorporated the possibility to close off the compainways down into each hull, just in case an emergency situation occurs.

It would be simple enough in many of the normal designs and could be incorporated to be unobtrusive during normal use.

Monohulls with added pilothouses or hard dodgers could easily do the same with a conventional companionway as @slug mentioned, although when this pilothouse expands to be more of a 'deck salon' the situation becomes more difficult and requires more consideration.

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Old 25-02-2020, 07:39   #21
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

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Originally Posted by slug View Post
When correctly designed the interior of the boat is protected by a waterproof companionway


Agreed. Inside the Fisher pilot house is a companionway door which in heavy weather you would keep closed. I wouldn’t want to test it out with the windows crashing in and the pilot house full of water but it would certainly slow the flow into the saloon. Let’s hope I never find out if it works.
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Old 25-02-2020, 07:43   #22
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

If you're worried about water intrusion and window damage in heavy seas, think of something like pilothouse type structure on old-school Chris Crafts. It's effectively a pilot house (hard top, windows, enclosed). But it's not part of the cabin and is separated by a standard companionway hatch. So if that hatch and drainage, etc. is built as if it were an open cockpit, you'd be in ok shape even if you blew out a window and took some water.

Basically, the idea would be to create something that functions as an enclosed cockpit.

For airflow, some or all of the windows can be made openable. Then in good weather on a hot day, you open up a couple of windows and get a nice breeze through. That combined with the roof keeping the sun off of you should keep things fairly comfortable.
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Old 25-02-2020, 07:51   #23
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

Once you get a pilothouse you never want to be without.

Our pilothouse actually improves offshore safety in many ways. First it is much safer and much more comfortable for the crew to sit in the protection of the pilothouse than outside open in the cockpit.

Then there is the risk of capsize (monohull): one of the most important factors is vertical surface area that facilitates skidding sideways when a wave tries to capsize the boat. Once the keel has come up, it is the freeboard of the hull itself, plus the vertical surfaces of the superstructure that aid in this “skidding”, which takes the momentum away.

Like already mentioned by others: the pilothouse needs to have a water tight companionway to the inside. It should be a sacrificial structure that the boat can do without for preventing water ingress.
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Old 25-02-2020, 08:31   #24
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post
The other issue is for long range bluewater sailing. In really bad weather the windows are vulnerable. Not (as is commonly thought) to being hit by waves, but rather by hitting the water. Let me explain...

Serious damage to above deck structures on cruising yachts can come from boarding waves, but the really serious problems come when the boat falls off a wave, and drops 10, 15, 30 feet, down and hits the water with its side.

The most famous (but hardly the only!) case was during the 1988 Sydney-Hobart race with the sinking of the [I]Winston Churchill[/I.] and the death of several of her crew members.

An EXTREME Event – The compelling, true story of the tragic 1998 Sydney-Hobart Race

I know, storm shutters can help. But most of those I have seen would not survive such an impact.

If I was coastal cruising in the Pacific Northwest, or New England, or Scandinavia, or much of the British Isles, a pilot house would be very, very high on my list. For a circumnavigation? Not so much.
Oyster claim one of their windows has never been broken while sailing. I have no idea if this true, but it sounds feasible. Oysters are (for all but one model) a deck saloon not a pilothouse design, but their windows are weaker and larger than our design.

Our emergency window covers are not designed to used as a routine even in severe weather, but rather are way to quickly mitigate any damage. These covers are aluminium of the same thickness as the pilot house itself.

In short, there can be problems with vulnerable windows, but these problems are technically not difficult to solve.
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Old 25-02-2020, 08:58   #25
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

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The biggest issues are the windage (reduced sailing performance) and large windows (compromised safety).
The windage issue is true if you are comparing to a J boat or similar. Comparing my Cooper 416 pilothouse to a modern Benny Oceanus, a Hanse, an Island Packet, or any deck salon...they have as much or more windage.

Large windows are not an issue unless they are grossly undersized. Last year I took a direct hit abeam by a rouge wave in a gale with max 52 kts winds...it sounded like a wrecking ball hit the side of the the boat and felt like we moved 10 feet to starboard as the wave rushed over the cabin top.

One surveyor cautioned me, another told me if a wave broke through I would have much bigger things to worry about before that happened.

Proper ventilation is easy. My salon is down, so it stays a bit cooler. But, at anchor or at dock one of the first things I do is put up a light colored canvas over the doghouse and foredeck. 1)It blocks the sun beating directly into the windows. 2) It allows me to keep my hatches open when it rains. 3). They can serve as a water catchment system (even though I have a water maker. 4) I use my whisker pole to support the canvas over the foredeck and hang hammock underneath, so I can sleep in my hammock at night. Interestingly enough...many non-pilothouse sailboats also put up elaborate canvas covers to keep the sun off the decks.

The small cockpit is a pain if you plan to invite a lot of guests. It is great if you plan to sail singlehanded, or short-handed (i.e. 1 person on watch).

The dinette up is nice at anchor for visibility...the dinette/salon down is better underway for stability, and privacy at anchor.

The inside steering station was nice in the PNW. But, I haven't used it in so long I am planning to remove it. Underway I am either using wind vane or autopilot, and near coastal I am always at the helm in the cockpit. But, it is nice to be at the inside nav station and have 200+ degree view of the outside world.

There are definitely pros and cons to pilothouses. There are also a lot of over-exaggerated claims and speculation of un-seaworthyness that have just not proved true.

There are designs that I don't like such as the Nauticats (sailing performance sucks), or those Fishers (small boxy affairs with no outside steering). But, there are those who love the interior layouts of the Nauticats, and the Fishers are great in the PNW and NE states.

But, pilothouse designs are like radar arches...you either love 'em or hate 'em.
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Old 25-02-2020, 09:21   #26
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

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This boat is of course bigger than most people here are looking at, but I think it's a good example of a monohull pilothouse comparing to a catamaran.

Galley up, salon up, nav station up, etc.
Something similar could probably be achieved in a smaller boat too (but still 50ft plus).

More info in a previous post that I made here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2948522





I love the feel of these raised saloon types. At least for coastal cruising etc. A whole different feel as opposed to the "cave". But not all Pilothouse types are like this, many are deep and cave-ish with just an "up" inside steering station.
For a cool weather area Pilots are nice. For the joy of sailing they are a PITA, you cant see over the coach roof while sailing from the cockpit. You feel so... isolated from what's going on...
Look at the top picture... the guy in the cockpit has the long coach roof directly in his line of sight forward. It drives me crazy sailing a boat like that.
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Old 25-02-2020, 09:28   #27
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

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Agreed. Inside the Fisher pilot house is a companionway door which in heavy weather you would keep closed. I wouldn’t want to test it out with the windows crashing in and the pilot house full of water but it would certainly slow the flow into the saloon. Let’s hope I never find out if it works.

Ahhhh....The fisher guy ..,

Tell me about fisher problems

I see one for sale cheap .... rough condition

I like the boat

Is it worth rescue ?

Encapsulated cast iron keel?

Tanks are steel ? Rudder stock Bearing ?

They have balsa core decks ?

Any thoughts or helpful links
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Old 25-02-2020, 09:45   #28
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

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Ahhhh....The fisher guy ..,

Tell me about fisher problems

I see one for sale cheap .... rough condition

I like the boat

Is it worth rescue ?

Encapsulated cast iron keel?

Tanks are steel ? Rudder stock Bearing ?

They have balsa core decks ?

Any thoughts or helpful links
They are built like tanks. Most boats have balsa core decks. Fishers are not shallow draft so I imagine cast iron is fine. Is lead better? sure. Does it really matter? No. If you want a strong conventional PH boat it would be fine, assuming you can restore it, but as a much a motor boat as sailor.
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Old 25-02-2020, 09:46   #29
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I love the feel of these raised saloon types. At least for coastal cruising etc. A whole different feel as opposed to the "cave". But not all Pilothouse types are like this, many are deep and cave-ish with just an "up" inside steering station.
Yeah, that is why I threw this one up since whilst it's not perfect I still think that it's a nice conceptual example of what can be possible, especially for monohull people with catamaran bridgedeck envy.

More ideas and thoughts are good for progress.

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Old 25-02-2020, 09:52   #30
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Re: Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

Love them in theory. My 27 doesn't have a dodger and I love that when the weather is good and for docking and sail handling. When the weather bums out a nice protected space is a lovely thing. One of my beefs with pilot house and especially with catamaran setups is the compromised visibility. Even when they claim good visibility it's at best liveable. My 40 has a dodger that is constantly up and down based upon the weather and I often dream of the pilot house until I'm behind one doing sailing stuff and unlike my dodger they tend to fold away poorly.
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