Pilothouse Boats -- Again

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by weavis

I think that is the difference. I like big old clunkers. Perhaps the non racing side of my Brit heritage

Im not keen on the Nordhaven myself BTW.

Deep down, the possibility of trying to find the upright stability, solidness and space in one of these, is the reason I fell in love with Catamarans. It comes close only it has sails.......

By the way, Billy Joel owned this for a while. Completely changed the interior to look like a piano bar. It often sailed to the Bahamas...

I'll give Billy Joel a 9 out of 10 in choosing his music and a 2 out of 10 in choosing his boats!

[weavis]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I'll give Billy Joel a 9 out of 10 in choosing his music and a 2 out of 10 in choosing his boats!

Ill pass the message along......

This is what he did on the outside.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by weavis

Ill pass the message along......

Thanks, I'm sure he would appreciate the critique

[Greggegner]

You know if they're willing to work c. Cj


Greg S/V Sweet Dreams
Pearson P385 out of Racine Wisconsin

[CarlF]

Dockhead,

If you can imagine yourself in a motorsailer, my Shannon 55 ticks all your boxes except the bulb keel (instead it has an unusual 4' 10" shallow draft keel that does surprisingly well sailing to windward). 8-9 knot sailing speeds in 15 knot apparent wind. Sails as fast as my previous boat, a Discovery 55, on all points of sail but the ketch rig is not as close winded (40 degree apparent rather than 35 degrees). 54' waterline. Ketch rig provides a 63ft air draft that fits under US ICW bridges. Fine bow doesn't pound but the beam is carried aft making her very stiff.

For your detailed wish list - 450 gallons fuel, twin Yanmars. Cruises 2GPH at 7.2 knots on one engine, 4GPH at 9.5knots on two engines. Tube (Jeffa) helms inside and outside. Twin flexofold props. Twin skeg-protected rudders. Two proper sea berths. Paper chart size nav station with chart drawer.

Some people like the look. Some don't. I'm obviously in the former group.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Dockhead,

If you can imagine yourself in a motorsailer, my Shannon 55 ticks all your boxes except the bulb keel (instead it has an unusual 4' 10" shallow draft keel that does surprisingly well sailing to windward). 8-9 knot sailing speeds in 15 knot apparent wind. Sails as fast as my previous boat, a Discovery 55, on all points of sail but the ketch rig is not as close winded (40 degree apparent rather than 35 degrees). 54' waterline. Ketch rig provides a 63ft air draft that fits under US ICW bridges. Fine bow doesn't pound but the beam is carried aft making her very stiff.

For your detailed wish list - 450 gallons fuel, twin Yanmars. Cruises 2GPH at 7.2 knots on one engine, 4GPH at 9.5knots on two engines. Tube (Jeffa) helms inside and outside. Twin flexofold props. Twin skeg-protected rudders. Two proper sea berths. Paper chart size nav station with chart drawer.

Some people like the look. Some don't. I'm obviously in the former group.

Im a lover of Shannon. I hesitated to mention them because in previous threads the boat got beat up. Walt knows boat design.

Others have strong and opposite opinions..... I have my big boy pants on...

I think they are great.!

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by weavis

Ill pass the message along......

This is what he did on the outside.

I'm sure its pretty from the inside out and also sure it is very practicle.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The raised nav table a la Discovery is good -- and that could fulfill the inside helm purpose -- I don't need an inside wheel.

But the deck salon design with no hull ports does not satisfy -- I have a better view from my present boat.

Yes I agree with you. That's an old design already, the 80 is just so much better...off course rich men are richer and richer but the 80 is a wedgie concept and made to be sailed by a very short crew (look at the mast at the middle of the boat). If Spinnakers are not used and a cutter configuration is used, by a couple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9nwmtviWVw

I could consider living full time on a boat like that LOL.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes I agree with you. That's an old design already, the 80 is just so much better...off course rich men are richer and richer but the 80 is a wedgie concept and made to be sailed by a very short crew (look at the mast at the middle of the boat). If Spinnakers are not used and a cutter configuration is used, by a couple.

I could consider living full time on a boat like that LOL.

That's much better. Just a little too big, alas.

[Dockhead]

The two best things I've seen so far, according to my criteria, are the Kanter Bouganvillea (suggested early on by someone), and the Chris White Atlantic 57 cat.

There's a 62' Kanter for sale in Florida for only $600,000, fresh from a circumnav and incredibly well equipped. Made in 2001. Seems like a spectacular bargain for such a vessel. That's less than 400,000 GBP; my present boat should be worth more.

The Kanter ticks a lot of boxes. It's actually narrower than my boat -- 15'5" beam versus 16', although it has a much longer water line at 55'9" versus 47'. Yeah, that's good! Has a very short rig with less SA/D than my present boat, less than 16 -- good for high latitudes. Modest draft -- 6'10" versus 7'6" of my present boat. Very Dashew-esque! Water ballast! The boat for sale was first overall in the Queen's Birthday Regatta, the first mono (according to the ad) in many years -- Dashew proved a long time ago how fast narrow, light, modestly rigged boats are on long ocean passages.

I don't quite like the aft cockpit -- also Dashew-esque and unusual on a boat of this size.

[Eleuthera 2014]

Here is a beauty which won't break the bank... well perhaps...!

1973 Jongert Jongert 59 trewes Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The two best things I've seen so far, according to my criteria, are the Kanter Bouganvillea (suggested early on by someone), and the Chris White Atlantic 57 cat.

There's a 62' Kanter for sale in Florida for only $600,000, fresh from a circumnav and incredibly well equipped. Made in 2001. Seems like a spectacular bargain for such a vessel. That's less than 400,000 GBP; my present boat should be worth more.

The Kanter ticks a lot of boxes. It's actually narrower than my boat -- 15'5" beam versus 16', although it has a much longer water line at 55'9" versus 47'. Yeah, that's good! Has a very short rig with less SA/D than my present boat, less than 16 -- good for high latitudes. Modest draft -- 6'10" versus 7'6" of my present boat. Very Dashew-esque! Water ballast! The boat for sale was first overall in the Queen's Birthday Regatta, the first mono (according to the ad) in many years -- Dashew proved a long time ago how fast narrow, light, modestly rigged boats are on long ocean passages.

I don't quite like the aft cockpit -- also Dashew-esque and unusual on a boat of this size.

Kanter Yachts is an excellent Canadian builder that has been around a long time.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You can helm from inside? That's already very good.

I remember when I was looking at Oysters seeing some old Oyster (I think it was a 435?) where the owner had installed some kind of seat under one of the forward facing saloon windows -- for keeping watch from there.

How high is your doghouse above deck level? When I stand in my saloon, the deck is exactly at my shoulder (I'm 5'10"). This is not all that bad -- standing in the saloon I have a pretty good view out the sides. The saloon ports are heavy tempered glass and fairly skinny -- Bill Dixon was trying to keep windage down and prevent any chance of the ports being stove in by a breaking sea -- so I understand this. However, Oysters have bigger ports in the saloon, and I don't think they get stove in very often. The worst thing is that I can't see forward. I do have vestigial forward-facing saloon ports, but the house forward is too high to see over, and these small forward-facing ports are only good for letting in light or looking up at the rig. I guess that's another compromise intended to give headroom below forward, but the Oysters are different.

When seated in the saloon in my boat, you can also see out -- there are hull ports. But these are really small, so it's not much of a view.
And none of these ports, neither those in the doghouse, nor the hull ports, open. I can open only two hatches in the saloon roof, and the companionway --- that's it. Not so good for hot weather.


Catamaran-like seating in the saloon? I'll have to look at boats like yours again. In thinking about pilot house boats, I have started to imagine some of the spatial organization problems the concept creates and started to realize that a really proper saloon is going to be impossible on a pilothouse boat of less than a certain size, much bigger, probably, that what I can manage. This is not good -- I would not want to give up having a proper space for a reasonable number of people to gather.


Of course, the use of the word "catamaran-like" begs the question of why not a cat altogether. I do really like that Chris White cat, which pushes a whole lot of buttons for me. I wish I could see one in the flesh. There are simply no catamarans of any type in this part of the world.

So many boating terms in this area. Raised saloon, pilot house, deckhouse, doghouse etc. Confusing.

I have the raised saloon deckhouse i.e. the main saloon seating is high up putting your eye level at mid level of the large high level main windows. It's a great place to sit. The inside nav-station is at the same level so I can see out of the side whilst helming by autopilot inside, but need to stand to see forwards as the vision forwards is obscured by the higher fore-deck and that spaghetti of ropes at the base of the mast.

As the inside helm is far back from the front windows the angle and height of vision is not great, so if the boat is heeled more than a little I can't see the full horizon. It could be made to work better if the nav-station was up against the windows. A higher eye position from a higher coachroof would all help. Likewise removing the ropes. (A planned project anyway).

You could install an array of high resolution, zoomable, networked, gyro stabilised, infra-red cameras. I think they would give a better view for watchkeeping than you would get from any position in the boat in bad weather. Maybe with multiple monitors for easy scanning for traffic. Cheap as chips compared to a boat change or a custom build. Then keep watch from your saloon or even your berth.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

So many boating terms in this area. Raised saloon, pilot house, deckhouse, doghouse etc. Confusing.

I have the raised saloon deckhouse i.e. the main saloon seating is high up putting your eye level at mid level of the large high level main windows. It's a great place to sit. The inside nav-station is at the same level so I can see out of the side whilst helming by autopilot inside, but need to stand to see forwards as the vision forwards is obscured by the higher fore-deck and that spaghetti of ropes at the base of the mast.

As the inside helm is far back from the front windows the angle and height of vision is not great, so if the boat is heeled more than a little I can't see the full horizon. It could be made to work better if the nav-station was up against the windows. A higher eye position from a higher coachroof would all help. Likewise removing the ropes. (A planned project anyway).

You could install an array of high resolution, zoomable, networked, gyro stabilised, infra-red cameras. I think they would give a better view for watchkeeping than you would get from any position in the boat in bad weather. Maybe with multiple monitors for easy scanning for traffic. Cheap as chips compared to a boat change or a custom build. Then keep watch from your saloon or even your berth.

I'm actually wired up for a PTZ camera on the mast. Seems kind of bogus, however, to make passages staring at a video screen. I agree with you, however, that the practical capability of such a system will be very great.

What you have sounds almost perfect. If the nav table were just higher. It doesn't seem to me that it would be all that hard to put a micro-house above the nav table, and then raise up the nav table higher than the level of the saloon so you could see forward from there.

I don't quite understand your arrangement -- do you say you can see out the house windows when seated? Or hull ports? When standing in the saloon, what is the level of the deck in relation to your body?

[Matt Johnson]

The Kanter doesn't seem to check too many of your request in the OP. It's more of a dog house for just navigating and not a place to lounge at anchor....why not add a hard dodger to your boat and have the same thing?