Old school romantic or New School pragmatic

[paulanthony]

Having pondered, visited every web site, watched everything on youtube I think I have to jump off the fence into either camp of the said namesake of this thread.

As it stands my romantic notions are pulling me very heavily towards a Cabo Rico. Have been nearly tempted to put an offer on one, I just can't turn my eyes away from that clipper bow and the evocative notion of trade wind cruising. (Would I ever cruise the trade winds? - Don't know)

My practical side is leaning towards a Delphia 47 -http://en.delphiayachts.eu/yacht/delphia-47/gallery. There are three versions and one is a swing keel giving sub 4 foot draft. It can sit dry also. It ticks a lot of boxes for me. Others I looked at are jean DS 50, Hanse 455 and even the modern classic moody 46. However the swing keel appeals and of those I have looked th the Delphia 47 seems best all round.

My cruising ground though would be the deep waters of the med. I have sailed there quite a bit in the past and would site the boat there also. More than likely north west Turkey with access to the Greek islands of the Aegean sea but this has the Meltemi north winds in the summer which are quite strong and was thinking to take advantage of this by having a swing keel boat stationed as far north east as I could then be able to reliably downwind sail during the summer then get the boat land transported back end of season from south east of Turkey to the north east. Might sound crazy but with a swing keel this would not be so hard to arrange and I could spend 3 or more seasons exploring this area on no more than beam reach to a run and that's my logic behind a swing keel contemporary design.

However that Meltemi north wind does kick up a storm so to speak and 5's 6's and more on a regular bases are not unusual so I would like to hear from anyone who has sailed/lived on a full keel yacht or cut away coz maybe In those conditions it would better and more comfortable but I don't know as I have never sailed on such a vessel but notice that a lot of "new" commissions seem to be being put up for sale quite fast. I am wondering why? Maybe the reality of ownership and usage is not quite the dream. Maybe they don't lend themselves to quick jaunts like contemporary designs.

I don't really wana track back south to north by boat - Its too much of a pain and maybe the land transport could still be a viable option for a full keeled yacht. (not sure)

This is my logic thus far anyway. - Any thoughts peeps?

[Steadman Uhlich]

What follows is written in a truly friendly tone of voice and with the sole intent to help you with a different POV.

My POV: I like traditional AND I like cutting edge boats, as boats, but neither may be what I would choose if only given one choice and sufficient funds and the goal of a "best blue water cruiser for the waters I want to cruise." YMMV.
____________________

A few quick comments:

1. I don't consider the Cabo Rico lines (the design) to look "romantic" or "Old School" to me.

To me, they look "1980 styling meant to appeal to most American middle-aged, middle income, conservative buyers."

That is not a dig. I simply think as a design, they look like many other boats from that era (1980s). They do not look particularly fast, sporty, traditional (as I see traditional), bullet-proof (expedition design) or cutting edge. They do look comfortable.

But that is because I look to even more traditional designs (e.g. working boats such a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter and many gaff rigged boats) as "old school" and "romantic." Of course those terms are used by many and it is a subjective use of them that varies.

Comparatively speaking I think a (recently built) "Hans Christian 43" looks more "old school" and more "traditional" (in design/lines) even if it might be a newer boat than the Cabo Rico build (i.e. different boats built 20-35 years apart with the CR being older). If the Cabo Rico 38 was built in 1980 and I viewed it next to a Hans Christian 43 built in 2015 (so 35 years younger or newer in build) I would still think the HC43 looks more "traditional" and more "romantic."

2. I assume you have looked carefully at all the available material online related to the Cabo Rico line. When I did, I noticed that they promote the fact that they won an honor in year 2000. That was 15 years ago now. Cabo Rico Custom Yachts, Inc.-Cabo Rico Sailboats: The Ultimate Bluewwater Boat!

3. I read a review of the Cabo Rico 38. Possibly their most popular model. NOTE: I have NOTHING against this boat. What follows is just from my notes on this popular boat.

But here are a few clips I found interesting. The author of the following quotes was Naval architect Jack Hornor was the principal surveyor and designer for Marine Survey & Design, Co., based in Annapolis, MD. The full review is found here: BoatUS - Boat Reviews - Cabo Rico 38

"The Cabo Rico 38 hull is constructed of fiberglass laminates, and although some balsa core is used in the hull, it is on the inside of the hull with just one layer of glass over top as it is for thermal and sound insulation and is not for strength. Since the mid-1990s, boats have been built with vinylester resin in the first four layers of fiberglass to prevent osmotic blistering. It is not uncommon for older boats that used a polyester resin to have some osmotic blistering if remedial repairs or preventive measures have not been taken.

Decks and cabin structures are built with 1/2" balsa wood core between fiberglass laminates, although core materials are eliminated for through-bolted hardware. Some early Cabo Rico 38s were built with teak deck overlays. If not properly and frequently maintained, these boats can have significant underlying problems that are, at best, expensive to repair, so a closer look may be in order. If in doubt, it may be worth getting a small destructive examination, from below, to get a better idea of the condition of teak-overlaid decks."

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

What follows is written in a truly friendly tone of voice and with the sole intent to help you with a different POV.

My POV: I like traditional AND I like cutting edge boats, as boats, but neither may be what I would choose if only given one choice and sufficient funds and the goal of a "best blue water cruiser for the waters I want to cruise." YMMV.
____________________

A few quick comments:

1. I don't consider the Cabo Rico lines (the design) to look "romantic" or "Old School" to me.

To me, they look "1980 styling meant to appeal to most American middle-aged, middle income, conservative buyers."

That is not a dig. I simply think as a design, they look like many other boats from that era (1980s). They do not look particularly fast, sporty, traditional (as I see traditional), bullet-proof (expedition design) or cutting edge. They do look comfortable.

But that is because I look to even more traditional designs (e.g. working boats such a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter and many gaff rigged boats) as "old school" and "romantic." Of course those terms are used by many and it is a subjective use of them that varies.

Comparatively speaking I think a (recently built) "Hans Christian 43" looks more "old school" and more "traditional" (in design/lines) even if it might be a newer boat than the Cabo Rico build (i.e. different boats built 20-35 years apart with the CR being older). If the Cabo Rico 38 was built in 1980 and I viewed it next to a Hans Christian 43 built in 2015 (so 35 years younger or newer in build) I would still think the HC43 looks more "traditional" and more "romantic."

2. I assume you have looked carefully at all the available material online related to the Cabo Rico line. When I did, I noticed that they promote the fact that they won an honor in year 2000. That was 15 years ago now. Cabo Rico Custom Yachts, Inc.-Cabo Rico Sailboats: The Ultimate Bluewwater Boat!

3. I read a review of the Cabo Rico 38. Possibly their most popular model. NOTE: I have NOTHING against this boat. What follows is just from my notes on this popular boat.

But here are a few clips I found interesting. The author of the following quotes was Naval architect Jack Hornor was the principal surveyor and designer for Marine Survey & Design, Co., based in Annapolis, MD. The full review is found here: BoatUS - Boat Reviews - Cabo Rico 38

"The Cabo Rico 38 hull is constructed of fiberglass laminates, and although some balsa core is used in the hull, it is on the inside of the hull with just one layer of glass over top as it is for thermal and sound insulation and is not for strength. Since the mid-1990s, boats have been built with vinylester resin in the first four layers of fiberglass to prevent osmotic blistering. It is not uncommon for older boats that used a polyester resin to have some osmotic blistering if remedial repairs or preventive measures have not been taken.

Decks and cabin structures are built with 1/2" balsa wood core between fiberglass laminates, although core materials are eliminated for through-bolted hardware. Some early Cabo Rico 38s were built with teak deck overlays. If not properly and frequently maintained, these boats can have significant underlying problems that are, at best, expensive to repair, so a closer look may be in order. If in doubt, it may be worth getting a small destructive examination, from below, to get a better idea of the condition of teak-overlaid decks."

Yeh... I hear what you say.. Have also read that link but thanks. Bit of a quandary. That is a lovely part of the world to cruise and the reliable winds in the summer could be quite conducive to a long keel. Yet on the other hand the ability of a swing keel enabling the boat to go back to the starting point over land has the swing ometer nudged on my pragmatic side at the moment. Do I really want to be neck deep in old boat problems? Maybe not.

[Steadman Uhlich]

After I posted my first comments above, it occurred to me that one's own age might have something to do with one's POV and what one considers "old school."

I don't know how old you (the OP) are, but I am 54. So, to me, growing up around boats that were built in the 1970s and 1980s, THOSE boats seemed "new" then. But, to a younger sailor (e.g. 20s-30s) those same boats may surely seem "old school." And, I have no doubt to the younger sailors I am also considered "old school" too.

To me, most of those boats from the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s look much alike. I do not consider them "new" or "old" in design. I see them simply as something from that era.

Similarly, I can see a boat built in 2014 that was made by hand from Oak and Mahogany and built to a Pilot Cutter (or working boat) design as both "new"(construction) but "old" style. That kind of boat strikes me as "romantic" and "old school."

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

After I posted my first comments above, it occurred to me that one's own age might have something to do with one's POV and what one considers "old school."

I don't know how old you (the OP) are, but I am 54. So, to me, growing up around boats that were built in the 1970s and 1980s, THOSE boats seemed "new" then. But, to a younger sailor (e.g. 20s-30s) those same boats may surely seem "old school." And, I have no doubt to the younger sailors I am also considered "old school" too.

To me, most of those boats from the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s look much alike. I do not consider them "new" or "old" in design. I see them simply as something from that era.

Similarly, I can see a boat built in 2014 that was made by hand from Oak and Mahogany and built to a Pilot Cutter (or working boat) design as both "new"(construction) but "old" style. That kind of boat strikes me as "romantic" and "old school."

Wow.. You are that old! Hehehehe - Joking I am only a few below you. Yep, we are not at the crest of the wave any more. We are old school for sure and one of my cheeky "younger" nephews had the cheek to say are you not scared of dying soon.. I replied are you not scared of dying now! Little monkey.

I just mean old school hull design really but the inward curve of the Cabo does give it that bygone look. I don't know.. The Delphia is modern and will give better service probably but it is a generic modern boat at the end of the day. That's why I am flirting with "old school"

[Rapetito]

Hi

I guess finding a valid answer to your question is nearly impossible, since the answer lies in what you have planned to do with the boat. Last year I asked myself the same. So I made a list of personal requirements added those of my wife and then compared all candidates.

We were looking for a roomy, modern interior. Easy to sail, also short- or singlehanded, big enough to stay onboard for a couple of weeks, but small enough for small picturesque bays and harbors. No intention for crossing oceans - just relaxed tours in the Baltic Sea... Of course we also put value for money in the lottery wheel. We visited yards, exhibitions and did quite a lot of sea trials - at the end decision was made. Last bit now is desperately waiting for the new boat.

Just make your own list, than it will be much easier to decide. And you can weigh features against each other: e.g. deep keel and its sailing advantages vs. swing keel (don't see the difference for land transport).

From my POV most relatively new boats for sale are for sale because people overestimated their sailing skills and even more of importance: they underestimated running costs vs time spent on the boat. I can reach my boat within 45 min by car - no need to fly down to the med (2-3 hours airtime), so we can make best use out of it - lucky me!

Take your time - this is a very emotional buying. Let the boat find you ;-)

Good luck!
Ralph

[gjordan]

My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is to get a boat that sails well, and is comfortable. A boat that only sails good on a reach and is a dog to weather or down wind in light air will be frustrating no matter what it looks like. In the size range you are considering , there are many boats that look good and sail well. Of course both looks and sailing ability are subjective. Since you are not going to be cruising in shallow water areas, I would skip the retractable keel (only because of a little more maintenance ) since trucking a boat that size is not an easy or very practical proposition. Get a boat that sails well and have a delivery skipper take it north when you want it returned. Just my 2 cents worth. ______Grant.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by gjordan

My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is to get a boat that sails well, and is comfortable. A boat that only sails good on a reach and is a dog to weather or down wind in light air will be frustrating no matter what it looks like. In the size range you are considering , there are many boats that look good and sail well. Of course both looks and sailing ability are subjective. Since you are not going to be cruising in shallow water areas, I would skip the retractable keel (only because of a little more maintenance ) since trucking a boat that size is not an easy or very practical proposition. Get a boat that sails well and have a delivery skipper take it north when you want it returned. Just my 2 cents worth. ______Grant.

Under 11 and a half foot high saves you bags of money when road hauling(maybe to do with the trailer or insurance- not sure). The swing keels gets you under that cap easily. I would not keep the boat in a marina. Would store it on land then commission it every season. I can get it lifted an hauled from south to north west turkey in 2 days so that's why the lifting keel is attractive.

If I used delivery skippers it would cost more money and still be a kerfuffle the other end getting it to a store depot i have in mind.

The return journey by sea is all up hill. Not sure how long it could take actually. Think it must be about a 600 k miles with most against the wind. Not so nice.

[foothillsailor]

If you are looking at and like the Cabo Ricos then you should definitely look at the Gozzard's


Before buying I had Cabo Ricos on my short-list --but after trying both, I went for a Gozzard and have never regretted my choice--both are beautiful, very well made, cutter-rigged blue-water cruisers with clipper bow-spirit,--but to my mind the Gozzards have some 'extras' that make them the better choice---some of which include -no teak decks, permanent half-dodger (really nice on those cool night watches/passages), drop-down 'tail-gate' on stern that provides a great swim platform and easy access to and from the dinghy, davits, large spacious cockpit for dining and entertaining (and center console reduces cockpit volume in case of being swamped), beautiful carpentry and joinery, spacious open interior, tons of storage, large engine, a Canadian/North American manufacturer support system, a flexible sail plan, skeg protected prop and rudder, cut-away full keel for stability and a sea-kindly motion. And although not a racer it has more than enough speed for any cruiser. AND they maintain their value.


It may or may not be what you decide but you should at least put it on your short list IMHO.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by gjordan

My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is to get a boat that sails well, and is comfortable. A boat that only sails good on a reach and is a dog to weather or down wind in light air will be frustrating no matter what it looks like. In the size range you are considering , there are many boats that look good and sail well. Of course both looks and sailing ability are subjective. Since you are not going to be cruising in shallow water areas, I would skip the retractable keel (only because of a little more maintenance ) since trucking a boat that size is not an easy or very practical proposition. Get a boat that sails well and have a delivery skipper take it north when you want it returned. Just my 2 cents worth. ______Grant.

Its quite easy under a certain height gjordan. The swing keel helps achieve the need for transporting. Not sure fella. Choices - Nice to have but a pain in the arse same time. I need to try and sail on something with a long keel I guess to see. Have never been on one.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by foothillsailor

If you are looking at and like the Cabo Ricos then you should definitely look at the Gozzard's


Before buying I had Cabo Ricos on my short-list --but after trying both, I went for a Gozzard and have never regretted my choice--both are beautiful, very well made, cutter-rigged blue-water cruisers with clipper bow-spirit,--but to my mind the Gozzards have some 'extras' that make them the better choice---some of which include -no teak decks, permanent half-dodger (really nice on those cool night watches/passages), drop-down 'tail-gate' on stern that provides a great swim platform and easy access to and from the dinghy, davits, large spacious cockpit for dining and entertaining (and center console reduces cockpit volume in case of being swamped), beautiful carpentry and joinery, spacious open interior, tons of storage, large engine, a Canadian/North American manufacturer support system, a flexible sail plan, skeg protected prop and rudder, cut-away full keel for stability and a sea-kindly motion. And although not a racer it has more than enough speed for any cruiser. AND they maintain their value.


It may or may not be what you decide but you should at least put it on your short list IMHO.

Tell me please, does that cut away keel inhibit tracking... Does it need you or the auto pilot on guard all the time?

Also what did you not like about the cabo? Just the opposite of all the benefits you found with the Gozzard?

Yeh.. those Gozzard's do look nice - Now you got me thinking again..

Beautiful looking boats...

[foothillsailor]

"Tell me please, does that cut away keel inhibit tracking... Does it need you or the auto pilot on guard all the time?

Also what did you not like about the cabo? Just the opposite of all the benefits you found with the Gozzard?

Yeh.. those Gozzard's do look nice - Now you got me thinking again"


I found the cut-away keel actually helped or improved tracking compared to a fin keel --especially when surfing down-wind in big seas (such as offshore of Oregon) --as for the auto-pilot it really depends on whether you have balanced your sailplan (if properly balanced then your boat should almost maintain its heading without an auto-pilot) but if sail plan is NOT balanced then I don't know if any auto-pilot can make a boat keep its heading.


As for the Cabo Ricos it wasn't so much that we didn't like it (except for the teak decks) just that we liked the Gozzards so much more --

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by foothillsailor

"Tell me please, does that cut away keel inhibit tracking... Does it need you or the auto pilot on guard all the time?

Also what did you not like about the cabo? Just the opposite of all the benefits you found with the Gozzard?

Yeh.. those Gozzard's do look nice - Now you got me thinking again"


I found the cut-away keel actually helped or improved tracking compared to a fin keel --especially when surfing down-wind in big seas (such as offshore of Oregon) --as for the auto-pilot it really depends on whether you have balanced your sailplan (if properly balanced then your boat should almost maintain its heading without an auto-pilot) but if sail plan is NOT balanced then I don't know if any auto-pilot can make a boat keep its heading.


As for the Cabo Ricos it wasn't so much that we didn't like it (except for the teak decks) just that we liked the Gozzards so much more --

I read that the cutaway keel tends to meander a little bit front side..

Anyway. Thanks for the heads up on Gozzard. I can see the advantages you talk about being quite nice to have in the real world. More food for thought.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by foothillsailor

"Tell me please, does that cut away keel inhibit tracking... Does it need you or the auto pilot on guard all the time?

Also what did you not like about the cabo? Just the opposite of all the benefits you found with the Gozzard?

Yeh.. those Gozzard's do look nice - Now you got me thinking again"


I found the cut-away keel actually helped or improved tracking compared to a fin keel --especially when surfing down-wind in big seas (such as offshore of Oregon) --as for the auto-pilot it really depends on whether you have balanced your sailplan (if properly balanced then your boat should almost maintain its heading without an auto-pilot) but if sail plan is NOT balanced then I don't know if any auto-pilot can make a boat keep its heading.


As for the Cabo Ricos it wasn't so much that we didn't like it (except for the teak decks) just that we liked the Gozzards so much more --

Gozzard 44 by North Castle Marine for Sale by Jan Guthrie Yacht Brokerage

[wolfgal]

I'm in with Steady Hand. The Hans Christian is my first (and in my case, only) choice. I need a gal who will love me as much as I love her. An expensive boat, granted... I am selling it all to get myself a 33, headed to the med too, hopefully within a year's time, hopefully less. (i think it has to do with turning fifty, the old-school-thing sets in).

I do not know if you've seen, but there is a Hans Christian boatyard just underway now in Sibenik, Croatia: bottom jobs, repair, parts, repowering, wintering... So far Bob Varga, who runs the yard, has given me all kinds of very worthwhile advice. I will definitely ask him for help with import and registration (he handles this, without certificate of conformity problems to import to EC) and then drop by each year for some TLC.

keep us posted as to your choice!

em