Offshore/Blue Water v Coastal Boat

[Davo1404]

Originally Posted by Mag3

There will be no shortage of opinions here (heavy displacement vs. not, cat vs. mono, sloop vs. ketch, brands..) and most aspects are truly about personal choice, but in my experience some key differentiated aspects are:

- stronger/better built... especially with regards to the tackle and standing rigging.
- tankage... both water and fuel. And for water even more so if you don't have a water maker.
- a good sea bunk... if the primary bunk is in the bow, then you won't really be able to use that on passage.
- a reasonably protected helm position... whilst being exposed to awful weather and having waves wash over you constantly may be fine for the volvo ocean racers, most people find that quite uncomfortable... which increases fatigue.. which increases mistakes.
- some way to generate enough power for your basic instruments and refrigeration needs when on longer passages (solar, engine mounted alternator, generator, wind, etc.).


best of luck in your search,

Cheers,
Justin

Cheers,
-Justin

Really good points.

[ilenart]

This summary and list would be a good place to start looking for an offshore capable yacht design.

https://www.mahina.com/cruise.html

Ilenart

[cooper1991]

Pretty good site, thanks.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Mag3

There will be no shortage of opinions here (heavy displacement vs. not, cat vs. mono, sloop vs. ketch, brands..) and most aspects are truly about personal choice, but in my experience some key differentiated aspects are:

- stronger/better built... especially with regards to the tackle and standing rigging.
- tankage... both water and fuel. And for water even more so if you don't have a water maker.
- a good sea bunk... if the primary bunk is in the bow, then you won't really be able to use that on passage.
- a reasonably protected helm position... whilst being exposed to awful weather and having waves wash over you constantly may be fine for the volvo ocean racers, most people find that quite uncomfortable... which increases fatigue.. which increases mistakes.
- some way to generate enough power for your basic instruments and refrigeration needs when on longer passages (solar, engine mounted alternator, generator, wind, etc.).


best of luck in your search,

Cheers,
Justin

Cheers,
-Justin

While my solution to these issues can certainly be improved as I make improvements to the ship, I have managed comfortably on some significant solo passages with my solutions so far. The amount of work I still need to do to the ship means that many seemingly important jobs end up pretty far down the list, which, as I am fixing and cruising, is orientated towards making safe passages, and to some extent living comfortably at sea and anchor.

- stronger/better built... especially with regards to the tackle and standing rigging.

A junk rig has many advantages and inherent fail-safes. I have made various improvements, many focused around preventing chafe, but it's really too much to go into for the sake of this comment.

- tankage... both water and fuel. And for water even more so if you don't have a water maker.

Engines are over rated at sea, I cruised for 4 years without one until very recently. I do have 2 60 liter diesel tanks, but even they would make very little difference if I get becalmed. Being becalmed is frustrating, but can be a good opportunity to get the ship in order and rest, especially as I have no wind vane pilot (which is not of my list for the next passage, hand steering for 17 days and going hove-to to sleep is no fun, but a good work-out :P ). Building the wind vane is my current top priority (after a few maintenance jobs I need to do on the rigging, but almost done with those), I'm just trying to raise the funds for it.
For water I have 280 liter in two tanks, but I use that for washing (and usually don't fill them completely, and carry 8 liter mineral water bottle for drinking. Carrying a few dozen liters in bottles is always a good idea in case you have issues with your tanks.


- a good sea bunk... if the primary bunk is in the bow, then you won't really be able to use that on passage.

Yup, sleeping as close to the COG is the most comfortable. I made a net for my leecloth, to let the air circulate a bit better.

- a reasonably protected helm position... whilst being exposed to awful weather and having waves wash over you constantly may be fine for the volvo ocean racers, most people find that quite uncomfortable... which increases fatigue.. which increases mistakes.

Definitely important, as is keeping the interior dry and salt free, and making time to have a fresh water shower before sleep. My bimini stays rigged at sea, and I have made it strong enough to survive a beating, the spray guards around the cockpit make a huge difference to comfort. Everyone should have them.

- some way to generate enough power for your basic instruments and refrigeration needs when on longer passages (solar, engine mounted alternator, generator, wind, etc.).

I have 300w of solar panels currently, but have space for 600w with no issues. Refrigeration is pretty high on my list, but I survive fine with cans and food that I have dried myself. 300w is fine for my electronics, even if I am on a tack with little direct sun.

[Captn_Black]

A final thing I should add, is a back up to the steering system. I read a lot of Marine Accident Investigation Reports, and the primary cause for sailboats being abandoned at sea is steering failure. I have an emergency tiller if my mechanical wheel steering fails, and I am soon building an auxiliary rudder + flettner wind-vane pilot.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

What are the key attributes - design or inventory of equipment differentiates an offshore/bluewater sailboat against a coastal or weekend sailboat?

How would I make a spec of a blue water sailboat so I can search for the right boat to get me across the Atlantic and Pacific in around a year?

Is a dinghy absolutely essential? Does the mast have to go through the boat or does a deck block mast fitting work safely in the oceans.

Here's a good resource "How to Select an Offshore Boat" :
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html

The people who wrote this also offer sailing lessons. Take some.

LittleWing77

[cooper1991]

Thanks, another cruiser directed me to this site which is very good. I am taking RYA courses in the UK in September (lockdowns permitting).

[chrisr]

[QUOTE=SVHarmonie;3148045]First, is a dinghy necessary to cross an ocean? No, of course not...

...but if you want to get ashore either at your destination or any island between, yes, of course it is--unless you are a really good swimmer. I guess you COULD go from marina to marina, but in a lot of places there just aren't any.

Is a keel stepped mast necessary? No, of course not. Some of the most well known and highly respected ocean going yachts have deck stepped masts. (Halberg-Rassy and Amel to give two examples.) The idea that a keel stepped mast is "required" for an oceangoing boat is hopelessly out of date.

IN MY OPINION: The primary difference between a "bluewater boat" and a "coastal cruiser" is a bluewater boat has to be able to take ANYTHING the ocean can throw at it.

don't wish to seem picky, and you make a lot of good sense, but i must take issue with this comment. there is nothing man made that can take anything the ocean can throw at it.

we all need to remember this

but i guess you meant 'anything that a prudent seaman would plan to encounter' or such

cheers,

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

people have crossed oceans in every conceivable type of craft...reed rafts....lifeboats....tiny boats...rowing boats....wood boats...steel boats...fiberglass boats..and a myriad of others.

A big part of successful ocean ocean voyage is YOU. Yes, YOU the skipper ! How much can you handle ? Most any well found boat these days can handle rough seas, but YOU, the skipper, need to decide when to reef, when to heave to, when and how to address an emergency problem or leak, when to turn around even, etc.

As the above poster mentioned, you may be required to do deck work or other sail handling chores under difficult, wet and probably frightening conditions. The doodoo can hit the fan at night, as it usually does, when you and/or your crew will be wet, tired, hungry and exhausted and lousy weather may last for days.

Only YOU can prepare your boat for sea, whatever it is, but YOU yourself, also need to be prepared.

There is an astounding variety of sailboats out there that are eminently qualified to do the job. Selecting one will be up to YOU ! There is no such thing as the "perfect" boat. Every boat is a compromise in one way or another.

My advice, walk the docks, talk to sailors, ask to step aboard, look at their boats, ask them pertinent questions, crew on some delivery voyages, etc, etc...some people feel perfectly safe in 30 footer..others may require a 50 footer, there is no telling.

There is no telling what the weather will do. Some people can cross the Pacific and never experience anything more than perfect downwind sailing. Others end up slogging their brains out.

People that have never sailed before manage a circumnavigation just as well as the old salt.

There is no magic number here....I knew a family that crossed oceans where they all "went to bed" at night, leaving the boat to handle itself. Yep, crazy, but true.

Good luck to you, hope you find what you are looking for, but you won't find it here, that requires some leg work on your part.

imho probably the most sensible comment so far.

the most important thing about any boat is the experience and ability of the skipper.

good seamen have taken some horrible unseaworthy POSs across oceans...and fools have made a mess of even the finest boats

by all means, work out what is the right boat (which i guess is the point of this thread) but FIRST, LAST and everything inbetween, make sure that YOU - really - know what you are doing (nb BTY, this is not gained by a couple of days at a training course)

good luck

cheers,

[MicHughV]

yes, walking the docks, you will come across many dock dwellers as well as blue water sailors. The dock dwellers are there to remind you that many people romanticize with the " idea" of ocean voyaging, but when reality hits home, they prefer to stay plugged into the dockside umbilical cord..

I could sit here all day long and tell stories about folks that bought the " dreamboat" and had it outfitted to the nth degree, but the first time they poke their head out of the inlet, it's game over.

Read some of Webb Chiles's books. Here is a man that has numerous circumnavigations to his credit, most done in boats that the average sailor would sneeze at, his latest trip in a boat that most would consider an inland daysailor.

It's not the boat..it's YOU !!

[Mag3]

for the OP - this... fantastic advice in this reply.

Originally Posted by MicHughV

people have crossed oceans in every conceivable type of craft...reed rafts....lifeboats....tiny boats...rowing boats....wood boats...steel boats...fiberglass boats..and a myriad of others.

A big part of successful ocean ocean voyage is YOU. Yes, YOU the skipper ! How much can you handle ? Most any well found boat these days can handle rough seas, but YOU, the skipper, need to decide when to reef, when to heave to, when and how to address an emergency problem or leak, when to turn around even, etc.

As the above poster mentioned, you may be required to do deck work or other sail handling chores under difficult, wet and probably frightening conditions. The doodoo can hit the fan at night, as it usually does, when you and/or your crew will be wet, tired, hungry and exhausted and lousy weather may last for days.

Only YOU can prepare your boat for sea, whatever it is, but YOU yourself, also need to be prepared.

There is an astounding variety of sailboats out there that are eminently qualified to do the job. Selecting one will be up to YOU ! There is no such thing as the "perfect" boat. Every boat is a compromise in one way or another.

My advice, walk the docks, talk to sailors, ask to step aboard, look at their boats, ask them pertinent questions, crew on some delivery voyages, etc, etc...some people feel perfectly safe in 30 footer..others may require a 50 footer, there is no telling.

There is no telling what the weather will do. Some people can cross the Pacific and never experience anything more than perfect downwind sailing. Others end up slogging their brains out.

People that have never sailed before manage a circumnavigation just as well as the old salt.

There is no magic number here....I knew a family that crossed oceans where they all "went to bed" at night, leaving the boat to handle itself. Yep, crazy, but true.

Good luck to you, hope you find what you are looking for, but you won't find it here, that requires some leg work on your part.

[ilenart]

Originally Posted by Ded reckoner

When comparing different boats, you might want to consider Ted Brewer's Motion Comfort Ratio which tries to quantify the overall comfort of a boat underway. He developed an equation to quantify the effect from displacement, length of the waterline, length overall, and beam width:

MCR=Disp/(0.67*((0.7*LWL)+(0.33*LOA))*Beam^1.33
For example, see https://wavetrain.net/2011/10/15/cru...comfort-ratio/ . This is one way to sort candidate boats into categories and then you can apply other criteria that best suit your needs. There are compromises in almost all design factors. Ultimately, the objective yields to the subjective, because you must decide what is important among all the significant factors.

A couple of years ago I quoted the motion comfort ratio for a boat and this was the response I received from yacht designer:

The Capsize Risk index and Motion Comfort ratio, are obsolete surrogate formulas which would tell you nothing useful about the risk of capsize or how comfortable a boat like this would be since neither formula contains any of the primary controlling factors that are needed to evaluate either capsize risk or motion (i.e. weight and buoyancy distribution, damping, ballasting, roll and pitch moment of inertia, hull form, rig height and weight, etc. )

When I was analysing yachts over the past few years the ratios I used were:

• Displacement / Length Ratio greater than 200
• Sail Area / Displacement Ratio greater than 15
• LPS / AVS greater than 120

However ratios only formed a small part of the decision, lots of other criteria ie length, price, hull construction, rig, age, designer, etc, etc.

Ilenart

[cooper1991]

Thanks. Does going with a steel hull reduce the risk of capsize? What about a long keel?

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

Thanks. Does going with a steel hull reduce the risk of capsize? What about a long keel?

A steel hull is more likely to dent rather than crack, and a long keel will help with course keeping, which can help prevent a capsize through broaching etc.

[Captn_Black]

I think it is generally accepted that a long keel is safer for cruising, especially when used in combination with an autopilot.