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Polux · 03-02-2016, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

So the boat sank by the stem (bow down). Does that make any sense if the water was coming in around the rudder?

I thought about that. That's why I had a look at that movie with a Sweden yacht going down making water at the rudder: You can see that for a lot of time the boat was flat on the water, going deeper and deeper but at a certain point started to have the bow under and went down bow first.

Polux · 03-02-2016, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Yes, the boat has very little buoyancy forward.

And they really screwed up towing from astern.

When they reach the boat the bow was already down, almost under water. They started to tow by the bow but the bow was going even more underwater. Then they tried pulling it by the transom to see if the bow was not going under the water.

transmitterdan · 03-02-2016, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Regarding accidents with rudders the only safe thing is to have the rudder section separated by the rest of the boat by a water tight bulkhead and I don't think Catalina has that. Even very expensive boats can go down with this type of accident if they do not have that type of bulkhead, that is an expensive one to built. Luck plays a big part on the damage the boat can sustain since many variables are at play.

You say that as if it is not possible to design rudder systems so they don't break. Thus a strong well braced rudder and aft hull section is less important than a bulkhead? That's some whacky logic.

If I have to choose either a stronger rudder fitment system or a bulkhead I will choose the stronger rudder every time. The bulkhead does not prevent needing a rescue. It just allows the crew to perhaps stay aboard long enough for the rescuers to save them. The priority IMO is to not require rescue at all.

Obviously the best is to have both. On that surely we can agree.

Polux · 03-02-2016, 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

You say that as if it is not possible to design rudder systems so they don't break. Thus a strong well braced rudder and aft hull section is less important than a bulkhead? That's some whacky logic.

If I have to choose either a stronger rudder fitment system or a bulkhead I will choose the stronger rudder every time. The bulkhead does not prevent needing a rescue. It just allows the crew to perhaps stay aboard long enough for the rescuers to save them. The priority IMO is to not require rescue at all.

Obviously the best is to have both. On that surely we can agree.

I tried to explain before but maybe it was not clear. On a spade rudder or a rudder with a skeg it is needed care to design a system that bend or broke before it breaks the hull. There are no such thing as unbreakable things and in what regards breaking a rudder the forces can be so big on a shock at high speed wit a rock that something is going to bend or break.

Full keel boats are an exception to that in what regards rudder protection.

neilpride · 03-02-2016, 13:41

Well Benetau fail to design that wonderfull idea, anyhow they start to have serious structure isues a long time agoo... is astonishing the mistery sinking rate in those Benes,,,

Cadence · 03-02-2016, 14:10

Has anyone considered the autopilot may have been doing exactly what it was designed to do. It is possible the POD 120 picked up 40mi. of long line or a trawl causing yawing so the autopilot was trying to do it's job. As a result the POD 120 got yanked loose causing the flooding. It may be a case of blaming the wrong thing?

transmitterdan · 03-02-2016, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

I tried to explain before but maybe it was not clear. On a spade rudder or a rudder with a skeg it is needed care to design a system that bend or broke before it breaks the hull. There are no such thing as unbreakable things and in what regards breaking a rudder the forces can be so big on a shock at high speed wit a rock that something is going to bend or break.

Full keel boats are an exception to that in what regards rudder protection.

I don't agree with the mantra that "nothing is unbreakable" in regards to rudders. It certainly is possible to design a rudder and attachment system that does not break. At least not until the boat is on the rocks. At that point who cares about the rudder?

But in the open ocean a boat should have a rudder so strong that you can literally snag something and stop the boat without letting water in. But for sure it cost money to do it. And I agree it can't be done on the budget that some manufacturers put on rudder systems but it certainly is possible to do from a mechanical standpoint. It is actually a fairly simple engineering problem when compared to all remaining design tasks of a yacht.

Polux · 03-02-2016, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I don't agree with the mantra that "nothing is unbreakable" in regards to rudders. It certainly is possible to design a rudder and attachment system that does not break. At least not until the boat is on the rocks. At that point who cares about the rudder?

But in the open ocean a boat should have a rudder so strong that you can literally snag something and stop the boat without letting water in. But for sure it cost money to do it. And I agree it can't be done on the budget that some manufacturers put on rudder systems but it certainly is possible to do from a mechanical standpoint. It is actually a fairly simple engineering problem when compared to all remaining design tasks of a yacht.

Yes I agree with that, I mean "a rudder so strong that you can literally snag something and stop the boat without letting water in." and I believe all boats, even mass production boats are built with rudders that can resist that. Yes it is fairly simple engineering and it is certainly on the budget of any boat builder.

We don't know what happened with that Beneteau, except that it suffered a non identified water ingress and that sunk. We don't know if it was from the rudder or not. As many have already noticed the rudder was on its place, the hull did not seem broken and there was a problem on the steering system.

I don't even like particularly Beneteaus but it seems that on this forum there is a Beneteau bashing tendency. If they would make boat so badly as many here insist they do, they certainly would not be the world's biggest boat producer and the owner of Jeanneau.

partyanimal · 06-02-2016, 05:23

The crew of Joule have now returned to the UK and some further information is available so share that may throw some more light on this loss and assist constructive comment on the failure.
The yacht was 12Nm off Guadeloupe in charted depths of 1000m (instruments not able to show that depth) when the steering gear failed as described, and CROSS-AG / SNSM were alerted by Mayday. This is verified by tracking on personal GPS devices and the yacht was fitted with AIS so the tracking will be a matter of public record.
Two yachts were chartered for a one way sail from St Martin to Martinique over 17 days. Both were Oceanis 48's built in 2012 and put into charter in February 2013. No photographs on the steering / rudder arrangement were taken of Joule but the crew of other 48 did subsequently take photographs of that boat as they were built around the same time and owned by the same charter company. These are added, of note the manual steering quadrant arm and the power steering quadrant arm are not connected in this arrangement unlike another posted earlier.
At the time of the initial failure when the wheels were spinning to starboard and port, it is reported that the yacht did not change course in line with the wheel movement. It would appear that auto pilot may not have been getting a feedback signal of the position of the rudder.
Joule was under tow (from the bow) for a short time by the other charter yacht before CROSS-AG advised taking off the crew and leaving the skipper and mate aboard to continue manual bailing. This was done and the other yacht stood off while the helicopter winched two marine rescue personnel into the sea, they came aboard to join the skipper and mate. They attempted to get the bilge pumps working but failed and then re-assembled the emergency tiller - this did not engage and it was thought that the rudder was no longer in place. An inspection through the starboard hatch showed the rudder mounting and the ply housing were pitching violently from side to side. The video shot by CROSS-AG does show that the rudder appears to have dropped and was still attached to the boat. This is the most likely source for water ingress, as the seal could well have been damaged and a reduced diameter section of the rudder shaft at the seal position. At this stage there was about three feet of water in the saloon and CROSS-AG directed the other yacht to come alongside to take off the skipper and mate, leaving them (CROSS-AG) to salvage / get the yacht to safety.
From this point CROSS -AG / SNSM personnel were alone on Joule and arranged the towing from the bow and from the stern, as seen in the video. It is reported that they did get a pump to the yacht and managed to make about 6 or 7 miles before losing Joule.
The charterers regret the loss of Joule and much of their personnel gear but did as directed by CROSS-AG who were primarily interested the safety of life and secondly interested in recovery of the yacht.

**boatman61** · 06-02-2016, 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highland Fling

Having had a boat in charter and purchasing an ex charter boat I can say that the maintenace was never skimped being charged to the boat owner and we got and had a really well maintained boat when we took it out of charter.

Interesting you should say that..
I bought a 2001 Beneteau 331 from Moorings in '06.. sailed to SMX overnight and found when I got there my V berth was soaked and the anchor winch motor stuffed.
Discovered that instead of replacing gaskets in the assembly they had cut costs by filling it with mastic..
Worked fine for a charter boat that stays in sheltered waters but 80 odd nm to windward.. not a hope..
They replaced the motor after a fuss when I sailed back.. but had no gaskets.. so repeated the mastic..

Kinda like the backstreet garage that sells off cars with back axles full of sawdust..lol
So.. I carefully did a loooonnngggggg dry sail back to SMX and did it properly myself..

neilpride · 06-02-2016, 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by partyanimal

The crew of Joule have now returned to the UK and some further information is available so share that may throw some more light on this loss and assist constructive comment on the failure.
The yacht was 12Nm off Guadeloupe in charted depths of 1000m (instruments not able to show that depth) when the steering gear failed as described, and CROSS-AG / SNSM were alerted by Mayday. This is verified by tracking on personal GPS devices and the yacht was fitted with AIS so the tracking will be a matter of public record.
Two yachts were chartered for a one way sail from St Martin to Martinique over 17 days. Both were Oceanis 48's built in 2012 and put into charter in February 2013. No photographs on the steering / rudder arrangement were taken of Joule but the crew of other 48 did subsequently take photographs of that boat as they were built around the same time and owned by the same charter company. These are added, of note the manual steering quadrant arm and the power steering quadrant arm are not connected in this arrangement unlike another posted earlier.
At the time of the initial failure when the wheels were spinning to starboard and port, it is reported that the yacht did not change course in line with the wheel movement. It would appear that auto pilot may not have been getting a feedback signal of the position of the rudder.
Joule was under tow (from the bow) for a short time by the other charter yacht before CROSS-AG advised taking off the crew and leaving the skipper and mate aboard to continue manual bailing. This was done and the other yacht stood off while the helicopter winched two marine rescue personnel into the sea, they came aboard to join the skipper and mate. They attempted to get the bilge pumps working but failed and then re-assembled the emergency tiller - this did not engage and it was thought that the rudder was no longer in place. An inspection through the starboard hatch showed the rudder mounting and the ply housing were pitching violently from side to side. The video shot by CROSS-AG does show that the rudder appears to have dropped and was still attached to the boat. This is the most likely source for water ingress, as the seal could well have been damaged and a reduced diameter section of the rudder shaft at the seal position. At this stage there was about three feet of water in the saloon and CROSS-AG directed the other yacht to come alongside to take off the skipper and mate, leaving them (CROSS-AG) to salvage / get the yacht to safety.
From this point CROSS -AG / SNSM personnel were alone on Joule and arranged the towing from the bow and from the stern, as seen in the video. It is reported that they did get a pump to the yacht and managed to make about 6 or 7 miles before losing Joule.
The charterers regret the loss of Joule and much of their personnel gear but did as directed by CROSS-AG who were primarily interested the safety of life and secondly interested in recovery of the yacht.

Same bulkhead plexus pile of dog **** as usual, kinda a Oceanis focal point.... the thin tube glued in the top and the ply partitions glued as well....

**HappyMdRSailor** · 06-02-2016, 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Kinda like the backstreet garage that sells off cars with back axles full of sawdust..lol

Sure did quiet down the whine and grind didn't it???

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

Same bulkhead plexus pile of dog **** as usual, kinda a Oceanis focal point.... the thin tube glued in the top and the ply partitions glued as well....

That is just about the crappiest deign I have ever seen... All of the upper bearing forces are transferred to that shitty plywood box... Completely restricting access to the bottom bearing and seal...

I would LOVE to have seen a video of the AP thrashing that box to smithereens...

transmitterdan · 06-02-2016, 06:28

Isn't this almost a carbon copy of the report from Blue Pearl? As I recall, their plywood box top was flopping around and they had water coming in via the rudder tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EO0o8kFZTU

Even if they had a working electric bilge pump it could not keep up with that.

Terra Nova · 06-02-2016, 06:33

What a POS!

neilpride · 06-02-2016, 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Isn't this almost a carbon copy of the report from Blue Pearl? As I recall, their plywood box top was flopping around and they had water coming in via the rudder tube.