Oceanis 485 steering failure

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Ok, against my better judgement I'll play.

So what organization in the world is enforcing that they have to recall anything? In the U.S. we have the NHTSA, National Highway Traffic Safety Association which is part of the executive branch and will enforce safety recalls. However they do not apply to boats. So now if you feel there should be a recall and there is not, you as a person have the option to sue the company. .....

Again, disregarding facts:

Neil said that Benetau had made a recall on all current Oceanis with a single rudder set up, including the Oceanis 48 that we are discussing and showed the piece that supposedly it was been given to the dealers to fit in all those boats.

I am not saying that Beneteau is obliged to make a recall. Probably you are right about that but that was nothing to do with the subject.

The subject is if Beneteau had made a recall or not regarding all current models with a single rudder to have the rudder system modified.

Neil said that they had made that recall on the Oceanis 48 and on many other current models. Beneteau says directly that no recall was made regarding current models.

What reason would have Beneteau to lie about that when such recalls are public and even if they would want to contain it regarding dealers and clients, certainly some of the many thousands of owners involved (all current models with a single rudder) would make it public?

A recall with that dimension would be a public scandal for sure.

The opinion that all that are involved on the nautical business are liars and not serious people makes no sense. First I contacted Ancasta, a large brokerage firm know by its seriousness and that deal several brands of boats, new and used, including Beneteau that answered me:

I am afraid we are not aware of any recall of that kind on the Beneteau Oceanis range, we shall keep you informed if we hear anything in the future.

They were obviously worried about that (since I had said it was a owner of a shipyard that had said that to me) and contacted Beneteau on their own that replied to them and to me directly (the Beneteau reply that I posted) saying that there is no Recall whatsoever.

[neilpride]

Jesus Paolo, that Beneteau steel plate is not a extra, not even a option, is not something like hey I sell you the boat and for few hundreds you get the plate to,is nice , he solve the bearing problem dear Customer but if you prefer to sail alone with the plexusbearingcoughcough!!! go ahead no problem..


Sounds ridiculous and if the Plate exists its because Beneteau know very well there is a problem.. Fact fact fact... call it recall or call it whatever crap you want to believe...


They are not going to discuss or admit anything since this represent a huge loss of capital and investement.. Is the classic big corporations game.. until there is a huge number of failures nothing happen in their eyes.. lets count it, 1 , 2 ,3 blue pearl, CR this one, the other,,,,, and go ahead and say for 1.0000.00000.0000 boats built those numbers don't represent nothing...


You sounds like a naïve victim of Beneteau...

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Polux

Again, disregarding facts:

Neil said that Benetau had made a recall on all current Oceanis with a single rudder set up and showed the piece that supposedly it was been given to the dealers to fitin all those boats.

I am not saying that Beneteau is obliged to make a recall. Probably you are right about that but that was nothing to do with the subject.

The subject is if Beneteau had made a recall or not regarding all current models with a single rudder to have the rudder system modified.

Neil said that they had made that recall. Beneteau says directly that no recall was made regarding current models.

What reason would have Beneteau to lie about that when such recalls are public and even if they would want to contain it regarding dealers and clients, certainly some of the many thousands of owners involved (all current models with a single rudder) would make it public.

A recall with that dimension would be a public scandal for sure.

The opinion that all that are involved on the nautical business are liars and not serious people makes no sense. First I contacted Ancasta, a large brokerage firm know by its seriousness and that deal several brands of boats, new and used, including Beneteau that answered me:

I am afraid we are not aware of any recall of that kind on the Beneteau Oceanis range, we shall keep you informed if we hear anything in the future.

They were obviously worried about that (since I had said it was a owner of a shipyard that had said that to me) and contacted Beneteau on their own that replied to them and to me directly (the Beneteau reply that I posted) saying that there is no Recall whatsoever.

It's interesting how you cut out the part of the quote about you accusing him and the moderators (through inaction) of slander and just want to hammer home this recall thing.

He said there was a recall you say there wasn't. Ok it was a mistake, What ever. You have all along been defending these people and their ridiculous design so on top of the recall part, I was including how they don't have to admit there is a problem via recall or other. I am not disregarding the facts, I am saying there is a problem they won't openly address through fear of lost revenue.

And where did I say ALL people in the nautical business are liars and not serious people. Please show me the quote.

What I said is you can believe a multi million dollar conglomorate all you want.

I however do not take anything at face value because of where people's motivations lay. Their motivation is to make MONEY not admit to the world every little problem they have.

Let me give you an example to clarify. As far as production boats are concerned I Love Catalina's. I say it on here a lot and I do a lot of research on the company to find their strenghts and weaknesses. The boats fall with in my budget and I like their craftsmanship and design. However I will not purchase a Catalina or any boat until a certain list of questions I have about their construction is answered primarily through my observation. I have no reason to believe that Catalina does not do these things correctly, but they exist to make money. They do not exist to give me more then I pay for or to give me a warm cozy feeling. They will try to give me the warm cozy feeling so I buy their product but it is because they want me to BUY their product. So stop stretching my words

and i'm still waiting for that quote where I dont trust everyone in the marine industry

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

For me it is enough. I am out of this discussion, if this is a discussion

Knew it was too good to be true.



I'll just ask directly this time. Are you in any way reimbursed by any of these agencies for your posts on this forum?

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by minaret

Ha!

I'll just ask directly this time. Are you in any way reimbursed by any of these agencies for your posts on this forum?

The first rule of "defend our brand at all costs" is don't talk about defending our brand at all costs

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

Recalls of boats or cars, for that matter, are public and well advertised. If a boat or a car is subject to a recall and if that is not correctly advertised and if an accident happens regarding that faulty piece of equipment, the Car or boat company will be subject to huge lawsuits and will lose all of them.

On this case it is not about that Recall not to be well advertised (or not) but regarding asking Beneteau if there was a Recall or not and the answer was clear: No Recall not only on the 48 neither on any recent model.

I really don't understand this line of reasoning denying not only the evidence but also the facts.

Lol! As if a major boat manufacturer approaches a "recall" like a car manufacturer. It just doesn't work that way. It's generally down to the brokers who sold the boats to contact the people they sold them to and inform them that the builders suggest a "modification" to the boat on their dime. This makes them look good with zero publicity. A public recall does exactly the opposite. I have been involved in a whole lot of this sort of work, and it's always very hush-hush. You could definitely have a factory "recall" and not have many people aware of it, even within the company. They consider this "need to know" information.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Polux

I got an official answer from Beneteau through Veronique Mornet, "maître d'ouvrage" for Beneteau that had sent me an email:

"On Behalf of Beneteau, we would like to reinsure your that we do not have such issues with our rudders on Oceanis 41, 43, 46, 48 & 50, and there are no recall campaign and such an option at the moment on the boats."

For an option she means this piece posted by Neil (I sent a photo to them), this one:


Obviously the Neal statements regarding not only the Oceanis 48 as all other current Oceanis models with a single rudder to be under a recall by Beneteau are false.

The photo he posted regarding a reinforcement on some rudders from Beneteau regards probably a recall made 4 years ago specifically for Oceanis 41 and 43 built between 2008 and 2010. There are information about that on the net.
RUDDER POST RECALL/MODIFICATIONS TO 40 & 43 - SeaKnots

Also obviously, having made previous recalls to beef up rudder set ups that Beneteau found that could have problems and not having any recall regarding rudders on boats built on the last 6 years that means that contrary to Neil claims Beneteau does not acknowledge that the new boats, particularly the 48, have a rudder design problem.

I am not defending here Beneteau, that I particularly don't like much as a Brand, much less that rudder design that seems inefficient to me (even if not necessarily inadequate). I am defending here the need to post accurate information and the wrongness of posting false or misleading information to reinforce one's opinion regarding something, on this case a Brand, Beneteau. I would call that slandering (posting false damaging information about a Brand).

A forum like this should be a place were cruisers could come in search of information regarding a product or a boat. How can this be of any utility if the information posted is false and therefore misleading, without other members of the forum, instead of verifying that information (that by is extent and damaging content looked highly suspicious) chose to call ridiculous to the ones that do that " you take the ridiculous positions you have taken on this matter".

Correct information has been posted on this thread submerged by false, inaccurate or vastly exaggerated information.Regarding correctness we can take for instance this sensible view on the problem (answering this question:"I find it hard to understand why they would use the complicated and ineffective mid level upper bearing".



Surely we can debate the second part taking into account the 20 000 boats (or so) that have been produced with this type of rudder structure (that is used by Beneteau for way more than a decade) the number of boats that had problems and the number that where sailed extensively and circumnavigated without any problem. Not stating any position regarding that debate, just posting facts and create the boundaries.

That debate has been very one sided here and very simplistic, being resumed the evaluation to comments like: CRAP.

An Oceanis, like any mass production boat is built to a cost and cost effective cuts are made to offer an affordable boat. Fact is that most Beneteau owner are satisfied with their boats (you have only to look at any Beneteau owner's thread on this forum) and that's why Beneteau is for many years the biggest boat manufacturer. If they were CRAP, certainly that they would not be the best selling boats for decades. There are several brands with similar price and cost is not the only reason.

Discussions about any problems on any boat are very useful, if falsehoods are not introduced in the discussion and if instead of looking at a problem on a particular model we do not infer that all models of that brand have the same problem (if information regarding failures on different models does not corroborate that).

I have heard about some rudder problems on some particular models of Beneteau but the number of models I have never heard about any problem regarding rudders is vastly superior to those and it is good to remember that for each model Beneteu built many hundreds of boats, sometimes a thousand. If those boats suffered problems, due to their huge number certainly they would made it to boat forums, as this one has made.

Even if the rudder structure is similar, the vast number of Oceanis around, and the many models not showing any significant or particular problem on that area, clearly suggests that it is not a problem common to all models. That the type of rudder structure, even if cost maximized is adequately dimensioned and built on most models..... and that does not mean in all... if evidence shows the opposite.

So, your post is, seemingly, dedicated to exactness and rectitude with regard to figures and ostensibly brushing aside generalisations and vagaries. I wonder, can you substantiate the number of such vessels which have "sailed extensively" (what does this mean?) and "circumnavigated" (by what route and in what conditions?) that have relied upon precisely this rudder bearing system in question?

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Polux

I got an official answer from Beneteau through Veronique Mornet, "maître d'ouvrage" for Beneteau that had sent me an email:

"On Behalf of Beneteau, we would like to reinsure your that we do not have such issues with our rudders on Oceanis 41, 43, 46, 48 & 50, and there are no recall campaign and such an option at the moment on the boats."

For an option she means this piece posted by Neil (I sent a photo to them), this one:


Obviously the Neal statements regarding not only the Oceanis 48 as all other current Oceanis models with a single rudder to be under a recall by Beneteau are false.

The photo he posted regarding a reinforcement on some rudders from Beneteau regards probably a recall made 4 years ago specifically for Oceanis 41 and 43 built between 2008 and 2010. There are information about that on the net.
RUDDER POST RECALL/MODIFICATIONS TO 40 & 43 - SeaKnots

Also obviously, having made previous recalls to beef up rudder set ups that Beneteau found that could have problems and not having any recall regarding rudders on boats built on the last 6 years that means that contrary to Neil claims Beneteau does not acknowledge that the new boats, particularly the 48, have a rudder design problem.

I am not defending here Beneteau, that I particularly don't like much as a Brand, much less that rudder design that seems inefficient to me (even if not necessarily inadequate). I am defending here the need to post accurate information and the wrongness of posting false or misleading information to reinforce one's opinion regarding something, on this case a Brand, Beneteau. I would call that slandering (posting false damaging information about a Brand).

A forum like this should be a place were cruisers could come in search of information regarding a product or a boat. How can this be of any utility if the information posted is false and therefore misleading, without other members of the forum, instead of verifying that information (that by is extent and damaging content looked highly suspicious) chose to call ridiculous to the ones that do that " you take the ridiculous positions you have taken on this matter".

Correct information has been posted on this thread submerged by false, inaccurate or vastly exaggerated information.Regarding correctness we can take for instance this sensible view on the problem (answering this question:"I find it hard to understand why they would use the complicated and ineffective mid level upper bearing".



Surely we can debate the second part taking into account the 20 000 boats (or so) that have been produced with this type of rudder structure (that is used by Beneteau for way more than a decade) the number of boats that had problems and the number that where sailed extensively and circumnavigated without any problem. Not stating any position regarding that debate, just posting facts and create the boundaries.

That debate has been very one sided here and very simplistic, being resumed the evaluation to comments like: CRAP.

An Oceanis, like any mass production boat is built to a cost and cost effective cuts are made to offer an affordable boat. Fact is that most Beneteau owner are satisfied with their boats (you have only to look at any Beneteau owner's thread on this forum) and that's why Beneteau is for many years the biggest boat manufacturer. If they were CRAP, certainly that they would not be the best selling boats for decades. There are several brands with similar price and cost is not the only reason.

Discussions about any problems on any boat are very useful, if falsehoods are not introduced in the discussion and if instead of looking at a problem on a particular model we do not infer that all models of that brand have the same problem (if information regarding failures on different models does not corroborate that).

I have heard about some rudder problems on some particular models of Beneteau but the number of models I have never heard about any problem regarding rudders is vastly superior to those and it is good to remember that for each model Beneteu built many hundreds of boats, sometimes a thousand. If those boats suffered problems, due to their huge number certainly they would made it to boat forums, as this one has made.

Even if the rudder structure is similar, the vast number of Oceanis around, and the many models not showing any significant or particular problem on that area, clearly suggests that it is not a problem common to all models. That the type of rudder structure, even if cost maximized is adequately dimensioned and built on most models..... and that does not mean in all... if evidence shows the opposite.

Huge numbers. So what? Very few wheels have fallen off Citroen Xantias, or Ford Mondeos… Not many of them have got "stuck". But then they are doing, in 99.99999999% of cases of their vast numbers, what they are designed to do: stick to the roads of Europe and North America, and similar. As I have suggested before, you may make it across the desert from Senegal to Djibouti via Ougadougou in one of these models. Maybe you could do so twice, in each… but it still doesn't make them fit models for the purpose, now, does it? Meanwhile you ignore the skeletons of those who tried and failed, and point enthusiastically to those who made it… as if simply doing so is proof of their utter road/seaworthiness, rather than an artefact of our increasing ability to predict and avoid hard earth and hard weather… while gesturing vaguely at the "vast numbers" of others which drive irrelevantly around first world roads, or to quit the analogy, barely make it out of the marina every seventh Saturday.

I wish you could have been with me a few years back, in Daniel's Bay, Nuku Hiva, when I offered help to an exasperated Czech owner of a 1.5 year old Beneteau Oceanis, striving to fix yet another issue on his rig. Most of the problems he had encountered had been with failures of fittings and fixtures below, often due to flexing of the hull. He said to me that despite the fact that he had purchased the vessel directly from Beneteau, their aftercare was, to put it mildly, less than stellar, and when he discussed his route as being a circumnavigation, halfway through it, was told flatly that it "was not designed for such purposes". Yeah… go back and see if they will say that publicly. Needless to say, the owner of that boat, who told me that story in a most heartfelt way, enthusiastically agreed with Beneteau's analysis of his particular model (I cannot recall precisely which one). It is a shame they didn't suggest the same to him prior to his commissioning purchase...

[ontherocks83]

on a completely unrelated tid bit of information that has absoulutel positively nothing to do with this thread.

I saw a news report once about how Russia hires people to go on forums as "regular" users and push pro Putin thoughts and ideas all the while pretending to be an every day citizen. At the end of the day they then have to prove how many posts they made that were pro Putin and how many were just regular posts to have a good balance to be believeable

Just thought it was interesting but I can't figure out why. Any thoughts?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

on a completely unrelated tid bit of information that has absoulutel positively nothing to do with this thread.

I saw a news report once about how Russia hires people to go on forums as "regular" users and push pro Putin thoughts and ideas all the while pretending to be an every day citizen. At the end of the day they then have to prove how many posts they made that were pro Putin and how many were just regular posts to have a good balance to be believeable

Just thought it was interesting but I can't figure out why. Any thoughts?

I don't know, I'm not following any of those politics threads or anything related, I have my suspects in some sailing forums about some individuals pushing the limits in some isues.....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

Lol! As if a major boat manufacturer approaches a "recall" like a car manufacturer. It just doesn't work that way. It's generally down to the brokers who sold the boats to contact the people they sold them to and inform them that the builders suggest a "modification" to the boat on their dime. This makes them look good with zero publicity. A public recall does exactly the opposite. I have been involved in a whole lot of this sort of work, and it's always very hush-hush. You could definitely have a factory "recall" and not have many people aware of it, even within the company. They consider this "need to know" information.

You mean when we are talking about thousands of boats and thousands of owners

Neil was talking not about a model but stating that Beneteau had made a rudder recall regarding all current models with one single rudder on the Oceanis line: the 41, the 43 the 45, the 48 and the 50.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

You mean when we are talking about thousands of boats and thousands of owners

Neil was talking not about a model but about a Beneteau recall to all current models with one single rudder on the Oceanis line: the 41, the 43 the 45, the 48 and the 50.

Way to answer the question. Not surprising.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

So, your post is, seemingly, dedicated to exactness and rectitude with regard to figures and ostensibly brushing aside generalisations and vagaries. I wonder, can you substantiate the number of such vessels which have "sailed extensively" (what does this mean?) and "circumnavigated" (by what route and in what conditions?) that have relied upon precisely this rudder bearing system in question?

This rudder set up, with the top rudder bearing not on the cockpit floor is used by Beneteau for more than a decade. You can see by yourself the number of recent Beneteaus that have made on the last decade the Atlantic tour on the ARC, the ones that circumnavigated on the ARC world and also some that I have posted on a tread about production boats that have circumnavigated out of the ARC World.

For each of one of this there are certainly many others that have done the same without having a blog or being officially inscribed in an expensive rally. You can see that in a generic way none of those boats had substantial problems with the rudder or with anything else.

This does not mean that the Oceanis is specially indicated for that type of extensive navigation or that it is a specially strong boat. It is a boat built to an inexpensive price and therefore with some limitations in what regards building quality. But it is certainly not Crap, as many had said about it here and it satisfies the vast majority of owners that own them.

If they were half as bad and unseaworthy as many as claimed here not a single one of them would be able to complete two Atlantic crossings much less a circumnavigation.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Polux

This rudder set up, with the top rudder bearing not on the cockpit floor is used by Beneteau for more than a decade. You can see by yourself the number of recent Beneteaus that have made on the last decade the Atlantic tour on the ARC, the ones that circumnavigated on the ARC world and also some that I have posted on a tread about production boats that have circumnavigated out of the ARC World.

For each of one of this there are certainly many others that have done the same without having a blog or being officially inscribed in an expensive rally. You can see that in a generic way none of those boats had substantial problems with the rudder or with anything else.

This does not mean that the Oceanis is specially indicated for that type of extensive navigation or that it is a specially strong boat. It is a boat built to an inexpensive price and therefore with some limitations in what regards building quality. But it is certainly not Crap, as many had said about it here and it satisfies the vast majority of owners that own them.

If they were half as bad and unseaworthy as many as claimed here not a single one of them would be able to complete two Atlantic crossings much less a circumnavigation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Ge...tswana_Special

Then why recommend it for unrestricted, open ocean service, as you have many times previously done? Why does Beneteau DEFINE this boat by the name "OCEANIS???" Families are involved, Y'know? Children. Increasingly. "Winging it" is not cool. At all. A family was among those I mentioned rescued off a sinking Beneteau in the Pacific a couple years back. It had broken up at sea just being sailed, like the solo skipper out of NZ the year later, heading East. The family were rescued by an interisland ferry out of Samoa… pure freaking luck.

I am glad to hear you accept that these vessels despite being called "OCEANIS" ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR OCEAN SERVICE, and I would like to hear you call for Beneteau to acknowledge that fact!!!

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Polux

This rudder set up, with the top rudder bearing not on the cockpit floor is used by Beneteau for more than a decade. You can see by yourself the number of recent Beneteaus that have made on the last decade the Atlantic tour on the ARC, the ones that circumnavigated on the ARC world and also some that I have posted on a tread about production boats that have circumnavigated out of the ARC World.

For each of one of this there are certainly many others that have done the same without having a blog or being officially inscribed in an expensive rally. You can see that in a generic way none of those boats had substantial problems with the rudder or with anything else.

This does not mean that the Oceanis is specially indicated for that type of extensive navigation or that it is a specially strong boat. It is a boat built to an inexpensive price and therefore with some limitations in what regards building quality. But it is certainly not Crap, as many had said about it here and it satisfies the vast majority of owners that own them.

If they were half as bad and unseaworthy as many as claimed here not a single one of them would be able to complete two Atlantic crossings much less a circumnavigation.

Man you aren't comprehending much, just cherry picking info. Check post 248 he brought up this exact point and the conclusion was just because it did make it doesn't mean it was safe or should have been done.

Now for the real question to find out how deep your allegiances to Beneteau are. Would you Sail a Beneteau 485 RTW with out addressing the rudder at all. No extra prep, no modifications. Nothing!