No broker no deal?

[john61ct]

Of course, but afaic that is a separate issue.

It would be unusual to be able to set up what you're talking about to happen within days, and as long as Johnny can come along any moment, lots of time and effort could be wasted.

My goal is, to get that boat off the table wrt other prospective buyers asap, maybe even within hours of its getting advertised. Only then start the bigger due diligence investments required.

From that point forward, I do not consider them wasted; I see deciding against a given inspected boat, just a fair part of the process, of finding SV Right.

[flyingfin]

Ask to see the title/registration/documentation before you give the Seller a deposit. That is usually when a deal can get funny. 99 out of 100 times, you will be dealing with an honest Seller who is proud of their boat and everything will be easy.

Watch out for those who have only owned the boat a short time, or who has a story on why someone else's name is on the title, or the bank still holds it. And ask the marina/yard operator about the monthly slip or storage fees. They will usually tip you off to any unpaid rent or liens they may have on the vessel.

[yobird]

Hmmm,
So a sale in Florida has to include a title for the sailboat and dinghy?
I thought a USCG documented sailboat wouldn't need registration in FL.
Am I mistaken?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by yobird

Hmmm,
So a sale in Florida has to include a title for the sailboat and dinghy?
I thought a USCG documented sailboat wouldn't need registration in FL.
Am I mistaken?

Yes. CG Docs substitutes for title only.

Florida requires boat be registered somewhere if US flagged.

Dinghy can be grey area, best to sail or row it.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-210284-2.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=site...SCG+documented

[Dooglas]

I have used the Marine Documentation Service in Anacortes, WA on two boat purchases and one boat sale. They did a very thorough and professional job in each instance. Much like using a Title Company on the purchase of a home or commercial property. I would recommend involving a company of this type in the transaction whether or not a broker is involved.

[foothillsailor]

You don't need a broker but a good one can be helpful -- however if you are hoping to get a reduced price by not having the deal go through a broker then that will be unlikely if the boat is already listed with a broker as the seller will probably have committed to paying the commission whether it is a broker sale or a private sale.

I'm a Canadian and have bought a couple of boats privately from total strangers in different jurisdictions than my own and without the involvement of any brokers (one boat a bluewater cruiser in the USA and another in Ontario, Canada --- one very pricey [six figures] and one cheaply.)

I think the initial sale price is not so important because after you buy the boat you will probably spend up to a third of the purchase price in correcting the PO's "fixes" or upgrading it ..... and the last thing you want to find out after you have invested blood, sweat and tears (and additional boat bucks) is that you then find yourself facing a bunch of fresh problems.

So --- basically there are two things that you must protect yourself against: firstly significant problems with the condition of the boat itself and secondly liens and claims by others against the boat.


CONDITION OF THE BOAT
Unless you have had 3 to 5 years experience operating and fixing boats like the one you are buying then get a surveyor, and not just one but (a) a qualified ships surveyor (and not just a friend as you will probably need a proper survey for insurance purposes) (b) a mechanic's survey of the engine and (c) a survey of the sails and rigging. If you think that these three type of surveys are excessive then go price out what it costs to rebed a keel or rebuild a mast support ppost, or to remove and rebuild a diesel or to replace standing rigging or a worn out sail.

AND you, and not the seller or the broker should choose, interview and hire the surveyors.


CLAIMS AGAINST THE BOAT
Claims or liens can be placed or made against a boat (and not just its owner) and can follow and be enforced against the boat even if there has been more than one or more intermediate changes in ownership.

Thus even if you 'trust' the seller, he may not have done his own due diligence when he bought the boat and there may be an outstanding claim or lien from a previous owner.

You can never be certain that there aren't any outstanding claims/liens and so you will need to be a bit of your own detective in order to become reasonably comfortable about that possibility.

So how do you do that? Well my suggestions are below:

1. Check the boat's hull number (usually on the starboard transom and make sure it hasn't been altered)
2. Examine (and make a copy of) the seller's photo I.D.
3. Carefully examine the boats registration/licensing documentation - is it current? does the name of the registered owner match the seller's I.D.? If a 'wife's name is on as a registered owner then she must also sign the sale papers in front of you or before a lawyer or notary with appropriate Affidavit of Execution- you'd hate to find out later that the boat was sold in the middle of a divorce with someone unknown signing the wife's name without the co-owning wife's knowledge or consent)
4. Search (using the boat's name, its hull number AND the name of its registered owner(s) for registered liens at a PPSA registry, the boat State registry and with the Coast Guard (it is not expensive)
5. look at the boat's log and ask the seller --what and where and with whom the the boat has been serviced and then YOU follow up with questions to those service providers (you are looking for unpaid bills or liens that have NOT YET been registered)
6.check with the marina that all moorage charges have been paid (the marina can enforce a possessory lien without it being registered) and get a letter from the marina addressed to you that there are no unpaid or upcoming bills (such as moorage, electrical, storage or haul-out charges or contracts with an unexpired term)
7. talk to the seller and find out where the boat has been in the last year or two --- you'd hate to find out that it had recently been brought into the jurisdiction without paying the applicable import or cruising fees or that there are outstanding liens from, or registered in, another state or jurisdiction ---or unpaid charges at another marina or port that you will be slapped with or for which the boat will be arrested or seized the next time you sail it into that harbour (Yes ... ships are arrested for unpaid work or goods supplied to that vessel)

You should appreciate that there can exist enforceable liens without them being registered (if you don't believe me then google 'maritime liens' -- if that doesn't scare you, then nothing will).

Even if it turns out that a subsequent ship's lien or ship's arrest is not valid, by the time you hire a lawyer, fight it and get it sorted out you will curse the day that you bought the boat (that may happen anyway )

So in summary, there are real possible risks of liens ---thus be suspicious and skeptical, and do your own homework and digging around.

Finally, FWIW when I went looking for my first boat I found (a) Florida had an awful, awful lot of totally crap, worn-out, damaged, not-cared-for boats for sale that unscrupulous brokers tried to pawn off on first-time boat buyers (b) the best advice came from a broker who told me to go charter 4 or 5 boats and then to come back to see him once I really knew what I wanted and (c) it took me almost three years of looking and walking the docks before I found the 'perfect' boat for my wife and myself...which some 15 years later still remains the 'perfect' boat.

Just my two bits --good luck - it can be done, but be careful.

John Forsyth
MOPION
Gozzard 36
Cruising the Sea of Cortez

[foothillsailor]

I may not have appreciated that the OP (original posters) concerns may have been primarily about deposit, escrow and contract issues.


Short answer:
(1) have a contract signed before you send any money
(2) the contract should state (a) deposit to be sent within x days of signing and return of written contract or the agreement is null and void and of no effect (b)seller WARRANTS that he is the sole, registered and beneficial owner of the boat, (c) that the boat now and at time of its sale is and will be free and clear of any and all liens, claims, charges, mortgages and encumbrances whatsoever, of any and all nature or kind, registered or unregistered (d) that completion of sale is subject to and conditional upon completion of sea trial and survey of the vessel acceptable to Buyer by a specified date (e) receipt by buyer by a specified date of surveyors' written reports acceptable to buyer (f) payment of a specified deposit with the deposit to be refunded or returned without deduction if buyer notifies seller by specified date that sea trial, survey and/or surveyors' reports are not acceptable to buyer or to be applied against purchase price on completion of sale (g) provisions dealing with how matters to be dealt with if any liens or claims are identified (h) provisions for holding portion of sale price in escrow pending successful registration of change of title (i) delivery date, location ship's inventory (j) etc etc etc (get a lawyer to review it but first agree on what lawyer will charge)
(3) send the deposit to the seller after getting back signed copy of the agreement
(4) send the deposit in a manner that permits you readily prove that it was sent and received
(5) the amount of the deposit should not be more than you could afford to lose if the seller is dishonest (on a $40,000 purchase maybe $250-$400 just as earnest money to show that you are serious --especially as you will be spending a lot more money for haul-out, surveys, documentation searches, travel, registration etc)


and if you are going to try and do it from afar, it just may be that a buyer's broker may turn out to be the most economical route for you.


I think that you may find that trying to do it long-distance by yourself may be impractical or impossible.


Oh and by the way there a LOT of boats for sale -- it is generally a buyer's market and not many 'bargains' are truly bargains that haven't been already snatched up by locals .... and if not then ask yourself why?


John Forsyth
MOPION

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by JKMilligan

I used ASAP Marine Documentation and Registration out of Miami

Originally Posted by Dooglas

I have used the Marine Documentation Service in Anacortes, WA

Thanks much to both of youse.

Keep them coming please everyone, escrow service, contract examples, documentation specialists, all combinations. . .

[john61ct]

The thread's main topic is doing deals without a broker.

Whatever the reason may be for not using a broker.

That may be, because you have found no broker is useful, for your situation.

That may include, your target price range is well below what any broker would bother getting involved with.

Many find the ancillary "friction costs" involved, when totalled up, exceed the purchase price of the boat.

That does not make such costs any less necessary, depending on the situation.

In fact, by finding a super-bargain priced boat, that frees up funds for those ancillary needs to be better taken care of.

But it is true, that each buyer's own situation determines how much can / should be invested in each of those ancillary cost areas.

For example, I've bought a high quality 32' all-aluminum boat trailer. Others may no want or need that. For me I've decided it's necessary.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by foothillsailor

contract issues

Thanks much for those

> trying to do it long-distance by yourself may be impractical or impossible

Needs must when the devil drives. . .

[gator749]

A good broker can certainly earn their commission, but not all brokers are good. Recently, I saw a boat for sale in Maine with a major brokerage that advertised about 650 hours on the engines. I was interested and called the broker. After some additional research it became clear that I had looked at this boat in Maryland three years ago. At that time it had 1900 hours on the engines and the Maine broker said it hadn't been repowered. I informed the broker of this problem and he seemed grateful. Now, two months later, it's still listed with the lower incorrect hours. Be careful, even with "name brand" brokerages.

[etbdjr]

Originally Posted by yobird

Ahoy sailors
another post about the new boat ...new to me and my wife
We are in the process of eliminating some as boats we find on various web sites in hope to finding the perfect boat for us by perfect I mean Caribbeans and Bahamas cruising hopefully finding the right boat in Florida where will be next week for a week chasing around now I'm familiar with buying boats before using a broker but I've never purchased from a regular guy like you and me if you guys could give me some insight and let me know your recommendation I'd appreciate it Fair winds and Happy Thanksgiving
By the way we both US citizens if it makes a difference our budget is going to be less than 40k
🇱🇷

Morning... I am selling a Tartan 1979 37c in Key Largo for $35k. Can be found on Craigslist keys for pics. Just listed it yesterday. AC, 4’e board up and new rigging sails and other stuff. Let me know if you have any interest! Might be perfect Bahamas / Keys cruiser. Thanks

[hukilaumike]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Sources for sample / template contracts beyond the ones easy to find Googling, would be appreciated.

Relevant past threads

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ve-205894.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-208829.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=site...osit+OR+escrow

I used the form on the BoatUS website.

Purchase and Sale Forms - Consumer Protection Bureau - BoatUS

I had to modify it to remove the escrow part as the PO and I were flying without a broker. It was also a bit of a pain to remove all of the ads, but, hey, you get what you pay for.

Everything just fell into place with this boat for me. I had been on the look out (sort of) for a Catalina 28, but all of the boats that came up for sale were too far for a casual look, and while within my theoretical price range, they were priced higher than I wanted to spend.

Lo and behold, this boat shows up. It's local for me, it has all the bells and whistles that I want and none that don't. And, it's very reasonably priced. And my wife is very encouraging (I do love that woman).

I was able to just go for a nice look with the owner, and once I decided to pull the trigger, the whole thing took a week. We agreed on a price, set up a sea trial and I hired a surveyor. The one thing I thought would be a sticky wicket was the deposit. Since we weren't using a broker, I had considered asking one of my lawyer friends if they would hold the deposit in escrow, but given the tight time frame, I knew I wouldn't be able to get the whole thing set up in time. So I suggested to the owner that we do without the deposit. He said that he thought we needed the deposit to make the contract legal.

Now, I'm a lawyer and I know that there is no need for a deposit to make the contract legal. But he suggested that I mail him the check ($500) and just take the rest off the purchase price. I decided to trust him, knowing that the worst thing that could happen would be I would be out the stop-payment fee from my bank.

Everything proceeded very smoothly from there. Turns out he is a retired lawyer himself and quite the nice guy.

So, I got my affordable dream boat at a below-market price in a quick and easy transaction. I am one lucky guy.

[hellosailor]

"Now, two months later, it's still listed with the lower incorrect hours."
If the broker asks the owner "How many hours?" the broker is kinda forced to go by whatever the owner says, because of their relationship. If the broker thinks the owner is lying or perhaps just confused about how those Arabish numbers work...the choices are to walk away from the deal, or start getting into debates. A hard place for the broker, and one of the reasons they always have a disclaimer about "Facts in this listing may have been found on a Sumerian clay tablet of unconfirmed provenance".

[RainCaster]

I am thinking of selling without a broker for the following reasons:

1. Ten percent commission
2. Ten percent even if I initiated the first contact, or any part of the vessel showing
3. Ten percent even if the broker is too lazy to put a sign on my boat
4. Ten percent plus over $1,000 per month to moor at their docks

I have a family attorney who has experience with vessel documentation and managing escrow accounts, and I trust him. His fees are far less and fixed. I also have a good relationship with the outfit who does my insurance surveys. I don't see them deep-sixing the survey for a lowball buyer.


Am I missing something here?