Newer boat vs older in same price range

[icedog11]

highland Fling I was most enamored with Beneteau when I first started looking I love the interior layouts, and the over all look of the boats. Just not sure I want to get caught in a heavy squall in one. I like the idea of having a tank even when a compact car would suffice.

[Highland Fling]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Friend of mine just posted on Facebook:



For 40% of your cruising time??

So, folks, buy wisely because you need 40% sleep time too so that only leaves 20% for life.





Mark

GOSH 60% of our cruising time is spent at anchor wondering where to go next maybe waiting for a 'better' wind OR whither to watch the new years fireworks in St Martin or St Barthelmey

OUR biggest working time is five days before we launch and the five days after we haul..........and typically we try to work early in the morning for a few hours only before it gets too hot to work 'safely'

So out of six months cruising two full weeks are spent getting the boat ready to go in the water and putting it away for the hurricane season.

IF we spend/spent a day a week doing boat maintenace that is a very busy week and for sure we are not doing that week after week......tis Rum Punches on board Highland Fling and ATM we are 'JUST' sitting around waiting on some cruising friends arriving from Trinidad/Grenada and the other couple from Antigua.....so we can cruise in company, yes we are relaxed reading and sunbathing and gently rolling in a nice fresh Marigot Bay.

Saturday will be busy.......the TOBY Fea Market

[Siberianhusky]

If you like them both then I'd say it comes down to a survey.
I'd rather have an older boat that has been very well maintained than a 10 year old boat that has had no maintenance.
My boat is 40 years old, when I bought it I got the bills for everything bought and done to it going back to the day it was purchased, I have the original owners manual, bill of sale, build sheet, everything!
I am only the second owner. I couldn't pass it up.
Not every old boat is "old and used up", really depends on who owned it.

[boatbrain]

Just speaking abstractly - isn't it a shame people so often do not seem to learn from the mistakes of the past?
In the case of fiberglass hull/aluminum spar/stainless rigging/ aluminum or stainless or bronze or mild steel gear sailboats, ALL the mistakes - or nearly all - were made by somebody 40 years ago, and the results are very, very plain to see - and yet, they keep making them, if the comments about certain manufacturers in this thread are accurate.

I do not think it's hijacking this thread - and certainly not any more than it already has been - to ask people about every particular aspect of cruiser sailboat design, what is best in terms of maintenance - because it's cumulative costs of maintenance we are talking about here.

If you ask this question, no boat is a "good boat" really , is it?

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Highland Fling

whither to watch the new years fireworks in St Martin or St Barthelmey

:

Oh, that's easy! Come whither with me in St Barts!

[lifeofreilly57]

The main problem I find with most peoples "refits" of older boats is the same I find with people who do cosmetic fixes on houses. Instead of gutting the damn thing they slap some paint on it and call it "renovated", then the wall cracks.......
If your buying an older boat make sure you have a really solid idea of what it's actual condition is, then make up a list of the work it will take to correct the problems, estimate the time it will take, then double that time.
Most "refits" I've seen were minimum effort, mainly just enough to make it usable and get it in the water, then the same people spend most of their time putting bandaids on the underlying problems. It's much easier and much cheaper to go full bore for a period of time while the boat is still on the hard and fix the issues than to try to niggle it to death while in the water.
If you don't have the skills and ability to do the majority of the work yourself it will be a costly and long, drawn out affair. I don't know how the marine contractors are in your part of the world but around my neck of the woods its a painful and aggravating process to get them to show up when they say they will and even more painful to get the work done right, with the exception of a few, and those few are not cheap.
The boats I've refitted usually required a year of intense, hard work and a moderate amount of money, but I always went in with a plan and went to it. On our current boat I have to pull the engine because of oil leaks, but while it's out I'm going to rebuild it, because 70% of the work is getting it out and putting it back in, I'd have to be nuts to do that and not rebuild it. While it's out I'm going to gut most of the wiring in the engine compartment and redo it, to fix all the half baked "modifications" done by previous owners and the contractors they hired. Why? Because it's the easiest time to do it and I'll have excellent access. Ditto for the other wiring on the boat.
I'm also going to rip out most of the plumbing and redo the water and waste systems for the same reason, it's easier to rip out the old completely and do it right rather than try to patch up the original 30 year old system and all the bandaids that've been put on it in that time. It's also cheaper in the long run.
Since it'll be on the hard with the mast removed I'll be able to inspect the rig, even though the rig is only 4 years old, it's still cheaper to replace iffy parts than to wait for a failure. I'll also rewire the mast at the same time, a couple hundred dollars of wire is cheap insurance considering the cost of pulling and re-stepping the mast. Why wouldn't you?
All the deck hardware and ports will also be pulled and re-bedded, it's cheap insurance against leaks and damage. If your not willing to go to that level your probably better off buying a new or a newly refitted boat, otherwise your boat will just become an ongoing work in progress, never quite done and never quite right.
But, if your willing to go to that level of refit you can get a 10 year span of relatively reliable service from your boat, at least that's what I've found over the years. Then sell it before you have to do it again, your usually only good for 10 years or so before it requires extensive work, the other alternative is to start doing projects one at a time each season at the 5 year mark, in that scenario you can keep your boat in pretty good shape over a long period of time.
If you can't do the work yourself, it's not a financially wise venture.

[Highland Fling]

Originally Posted by icedog11

highland Fling I was most enamored with Beneteau when I first started looking I love the interior layouts, and the over all look of the boats. Just not sure I want to get caught in a heavy squall in one. I like the idea of having a tank even when a compact car would suffice.

OUCH WHY???? I would say that 'almost any boat is stronger tougher than the crew.

We have sailed our B461 for ten years now in the Caribbean previously due to my partners "the`Admiral's" employment as a Head Teacher in Bonnie Scotland we were only sailing at Easter and during July August (Hurricane Season).

WE have been in a few TS's 35/45 knots of wind...Dive mask on and run downwind...sadly that means you prolong the agony and rain HURTS......

A few Crimmys ago we were in Colombier St Barthelemy with winds of F9. The National park people came out to check that we and the boat were ok. The only issue was I had to lash the wheel as the brake would not hold it.....unbeknown to us a Privilege 39 cat wrecked on the rocks at Ile Fourche, bits of it are still there. The park people suggested we add a 'safety line' down to the mooring block AND they did that for us. I have NEVER had a worry with out boat being strong enough or tough enough.

We drive her 'hard' and I almost never sail the rumb line on an inter-island passage almost always putting something in the bank as I chase the bigger waves and swells to keep Highland Fling thundering along and surfing for as long as possible. We can hit 12/13 knots and keep that up for a few minutes at a time and this is not light ship, as according to TOBY we are almost two tons heavier that spec though can you really believe the manufactures spec?

I have had Bennies for 35+ years, in no particular order First 35, 32, 325, 375, 405, 38, 456 (a very famous one built by Beneteau to win the Admirals Cup) a 51 and a First Class Ten.

I am also somewhat of an expert in inner moulding detachment problems issues AND proper repair writing the spec and overseeing the work.

As the worlds biggest boat builder of course there are going to be people with Beneteau boat problems.....doubly so as this is a high value 'luxury' item.

There is a thread here about a Lagoon 52....which to me reads like someone who was expecting perfection for his around half a million dollars....a problem boat.....yet these people sailed the recent ARC in it.

Beneteau and Lagoon and all the other boats that Group Beneteau build are 'production boats heavily engineered and built to a price.......

I have a friend with a multi million pound 76 foot custom build Modern Classic........The boat is a maintenance nightmare. I was tasked to write the operation manual and the Idiots Guide to running this boat for the paid skippers...... I wont go into how much of a nightmare this boat is BUT 80% of your time on almost any problem is sorting out what bit does what, even silly things like finding the right circuit breaker when he tripped one with a berth light bulb going pop took me more than an hour. I have been to the Bennie and Lagoon factories a number of times including CNB in Bordeaux and I was impressed.

The older firsts are very fast and good cruising boats much stronger and tougher than me for sure. I did a delivery trip from Gib back to the UK on a Bennie 50.....we got caught out in the Bay of Biscay....silly sailing to someone else's schedule I KNOW......BUT we lost the dinghy WE cut it loose in a F9/10 bent some stanchions by the force of the waves alone AND wiped out the masthead instruments in a megga broach. Worried for sure we were BUT not worried that the boat could take it, only could we. Again we run off downwind which in hindsight only really tortured us for longer but seemed like the sensible thing to do at the time.....

I don't know if I can post a vid here but I have a small one of us thundering over to the BVI's at 8/9/10 knots in some nice typically Caribbean seas being past by our friends in their Lagoon 570 they took the vid. The only reason we have a reef in is that a seam let go in our old mainsail the day before and rather than delay our passage and stitch it we just took the reef in and off we went.

Cruising on my lovely Bennie my BIGGEST ISSUE is keeping my iPad charged and getting a good strong signal on my Scarlet 4G modem and of course finding open WiFi sites to connect to using my Island Time WiFi system.

[roland stockham]

When buying any used boat the ONLY thing to consider (once you decide you like it and it will do the type of sailing you want) is condition. I have seen many 10yr old boats that need a full refit because they have sat on the dock and been neglected and 75yr old boats ready for their next circumnavigation. The only point To bear in mind is that some modern boats achieve a reletivly low construction cost by using lightweight materials. Can produce a great and very seaworthy boat that will do years as a 'weekend sailor' but can be a problem for the amount of wear active cruising brings. When assessing the value of a boat look at displacement weight rather than length, it shows what went into the build. All else being equal a 20ton boat cost twice as much to build than a 10ton.

[Scout 30]

There's something to be said for not being able to take your eyes off your boat as you row away from her. If you just want to get from point A to point B as safely, comfortably & cheaply as possible get the SUV. If you want to do it in style get the Ferrari. If you just want to fit in the IP will do it well. If you want to stand out get the work of art.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

There's something to be said for not being able to take your eyes off your boat as you row away from her. If you just want to get from point A to point B as safely, comfortably & cheaply as possible get the SUV. If you want to do it in style get the Ferrari. If you just want to fit in the IP will do it well. If you want to stand out get the work of art.

Very True.. for some anyway. That's why my last post reinforces the buyer to actually look at the boats. There are big differences, but really... it's the buyer that matters.
Sooner or later you have to stop surfing the internet and actually get on the boats... often all of a sudden a lot of your opinions of what you want change....

[jpstevens]

You did not state what your intended use will be: although the Hinkley 40 is a beautiful classic, it has a short water line, small interior space and not much storage or tankage. The IP, in contrast, has abundant storage, reasonable tankage, and a large interior for a given LOA.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

There's something to be said for not being able to take your eyes off your boat as you row away from her.

That's the only time you see a boat. The beauty means SFA if you row away from her at sea...

[jhstacy]

Originally Posted by Highland Fling

Now that is just a stupid and crass comment uninformed and just flamming and adds NOTHING to this thread..

You tell that to Anita who's IP mast fell down when they were just sailing along in a light breeze and IP wanted nothing to do with the problem

Or the guy who was on the hard and his wife said "what was that 'ping' " only to discover it was the chain plate breaking.

Or the people with IP's who have had to rip their boat apart to replace leaking tanks.

Mild steel nails holding furniture modlues together on a boat is 'quality design workmanship' I THINK NOT

Using the wrong type of Stainless Steel for the chain plates with a bad design and poor welding then encapsulating it in GRP so that it cant breathe and it falls apart so again you have to rip a lot of the boat apart to replace the chainplates...

Hopfully with the correct SS this time BUT it will still have to be encapsulated into the hull side with GRP so again over time you will get crevice corrosion.

None of that is quality in my world, well yes it is actually poor quality.

I believe IP say replacing the chainplates is a 'normal' maintenance item........YEAH real Quality NOT!!!

Go get educated before you post any more rubbish

Actually, the IP factory replaced my chainplates and the new ones are NOT encapsulated.

[lifeofreilly57]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

There's something to be said for not being able to take your eyes off your boat as you row away from her. If you just want to get from point A to point B as safely, comfortably & cheaply as possible get the SUV. If you want to do it in style get the Ferrari. If you just want to fit in the IP will do it well. If you want to stand out get the work of art.

Which is all well and good as long as you have a crew of mechanics in an SUV following you to fix the Ferrari by the side of the road so you can get it back to the shop....for more work.
The Hinckleys are beautiful boats, well built, beautiful joinery, classic lines, but are what they are, expensive works of art which may or may not be suited to modern cruising needs. For someone to get on the water for a price you can do a lot better on other makes for the same money. Of course if your in that league where money is no object, go for it, I'm not in that league financially but do see a lot of them in our home waters. Mostly as expensive weekenders or day sailors.
By the way, have you seen Hinckleys latest offering? Sure doesn't look like your dad's Hinckley, more modern racer boy than traditional classic.

[barnakiel]

Yep. These are two different boats and (all other things equal) WILL be priced differently. Still, they are just like any other consumer quality good - so probably just look at what you actually WANT.

I think one of them may be the better sailing boat while the other one may be more practical. Get what YOU want, and make sure the sample you get is as trouble free as possible (you may consider hiring a surveyor, unless you are an experienced buyer/owner).

b.