New Sailboats

[JonCharles66]

Watched lengthy videos on both the Oyster and Amel boats. Everyone is precisely correct. It was like watching a video regarding Rolls-Royce. The quality construction and upgrades inside/outside were quite impressive. As everyone on here knows, it’s not just the purchase price for a new boat that hits you. It’s the annual insurance of 1.5%. Sales tax. All of those things which can dramatically increase your annual costs above and beyond your initial purchase.

When I retire in a few years our daughters will be 10 and 13. My wife and I have owned 6 different boats over the years, but nothing of the size we need for family life on board 365. We plan to live on board for several years. I recognize there is a big difference between going on a day, multi-day, or two week trip on a sailboat vs taking the plunge and going all in for a different way of life. My wife and I are beyond ready….our daughters are still young so a possible mutiny anticipated.

Perhaps I should pose the question in a different manner in light of these posts. If my wife and I have budgeted $450,000 max toward a boat what would be the smarter long-term choice? Buy a brand-new 45 foot boat loaded with everything we want OR buy something of high quality in the used market perhaps a few years old?

[Tetepare]

I'm going to be repetitive of my first post.

You're $450,000 boat will not come from the factory with lots of stuff. So you'll need to buy kitchenware, probably some electronics, anchors, life raft, davits, dinghy & motor, a sail or two, dock lines, spare halyards, etc. So now your budget for a new boat is $400,000.

If you bought it today, a year from now it's worth $360,000. So at that point you don't have a $450,000 boat, you have a $360,000 boat.

Why not put $325,000 into a well appointed Oyster or Amel (I like Crealock 44) that has all or most of that stuff and put $50,000 into a refit? Then a year later you'll still have a $350,000 boat that's better, fully appointed, and won't depreciate any where near as fast.

[Tetepare]

Oops I meant Gozzard 44.

[Jim Cate]

JC66, if you haven't been following this thread: "Warranty claim or not on thru hull/seacock?" , perhaps you should. The serious issues with build quality in the mass produced Euro boats are one good reason to buy older and better.

Jim

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

JC66, if you haven't been following this thread: "Warranty claim or not on thru hull/seacock?" , perhaps you should. The serious issues with build quality in the mass produced Euro boats are one good reason to buy older and better.

Jim

This is mostly a non-issue case as explained by Polux on his forum, no excessive care on maintenance is needed on production boats.
Plus most models (apart from the new ones) have already sailed thousands of accumulated miles, which mean most issue have already been detected and solved.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

This is mostly a non-issue case as explained by Polux on his forum, no excessive care on maintenance is needed on production boats.
Plus most models (apart from the new ones) have already sailed thousands of accumulated miles, which mean most issue have already been detected and solved.

Right you are... what could POSSIBLY have gone wrong on that Lagoon? A fine bit of old world craftsmanship.

Jim

[downunder]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

This is mostly a non-issue case as explained by Polux on his forum, no excessive care on maintenance is needed on production boats.
Plus most models (apart from the new ones) have already sailed thousands of accumulated miles, which mean most issue have already been detected and solved.

That you and Polux don't consider this an issue does not mean it is a non issue.

Incorrectly installed sea cocks have sunk plenty of vessels.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ck-185146.html

[AJPT]

Here's my 10 pence worth.

My partner and I have trailed the boat shows for 3 years now, spent hours on the internet reading reviews etc, spoke to as many different people in the sailing industry as possible, some friends, some racers, some cruisers, liveaboard couples and manufactures. Some days I felt I was going round in circles.

To cut to the chase Hanse for us wins every time in nearly all aspects. Sailors of boats like swans, oyster etc have said to us, saw one of those Hanse 575 or 545 the other day, wow what a boat.

My mate helmed a 575 on round the island race and he said it was unbelievable, it was quite rough round the back of the island, no one got wet at the helm, my other mate was on a boat that was over taken by that 575 and said the same, he said it was hauling arse.

Build quality is good, dealer network is much better than it used to be, choose wisely seems to be the order of the day.

At Dusseldorf boat show we went on everything over 2 days, 10-6pm.

Out of all the production boats, Hanse for us is leaps and bounds ahead. We went on the grand soleil 46 lc, fine boat indeed, very nice then went straight on a Hanse 588 there after, could hardly tell the difference in interior and exterior quality, difference was one was 46ft the other was 57ft, same price! I know what I'd choose.

Wauquiez 48 was fantastic, if we were going for a more bluewater orientated vessel I'd choose one of those, the wood workmanship was very high class. Interestingly​ wauquiez have just bought out a new 42 pilot saloon, looks very nice.

Jeanneau I would put at the bottom of the list, went on the whole range at the show and they are cheap and badly finished, I would not invest my own money in one at all, I stood on the new jeanneau 53 and observed the reactions of the public coming on and off of it and how long they spent on the boat. Most people were in and out and I could see people looking at the same things I had noticed, picking up on the sub standard workmanship. I watched a woman in her 60's struggle to get from the aft down on to the bathing platform as the design was so poor, that was on land, not in the water!

Beneteau are nice, bit like a ford focus I guess, you know what your getting it will do the job and get you there.

Dufour was nice but again I'd put it slightly above beneteau but below Hanse in overall workmanship and design features.

Spoke to a yacht charter business owner from Croatia (bare in mind he doesn't work for any brand) he told us to stay away from jeanneau, he also said dufour used to make nice boats but something has happened the last couple of years and they seem to be not as high standard as they once were.

I asked him why he feels this way, his reply, I run a fleet of boats of all makes and sizes I know which ones will cause me trouble Monday morning and which ones won't, whilst standing on a Hanse, pointing down, these ones won't!

Take of that what you will, everything is subjective of course, I started off not knowing very much about the different brands a few years back now I can safely say what I do and don't like and why.

In a fantasy world of course we'd all be sailing in Amel 55 or HB 54 but not everyone can afford them and I do think you have to like what you live on not buy it because everyone else has told you that you won't be 'bluewater' unless your own a centre cockpit yacht with rich mahogany everywhere, tiny windows and 100 lines on deck to trip over.

Sailing zatara on their Oceanis 55 are now in the Pacific, when they first started they didn't know the pointy end to the blunt end, their production boat has seen them right so far.
Vagabond sailed round the world on a bene 42, 10,000 miles in Riley was still calling the galley a kitchen and the bows the front.

Buy what you like but do weigh up all the pros and cons of each vessel, boat shows are great for this a spreadsheet works well too, depends how geeky you want to go.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by pcmm

I would take a Hanse over a beneteau/Jeaneau/catalina/Hunter Any day. Hanse has always been considered to be a level or two in quality ABOVE the BJCH crowd!!!

When people say things like this I have to ask have they really had a good look at the construction of the boats they talk about. An eg is the Hunter 49.

Hunters have a bad rap, possibly deserved, I really don't know BUT I doubt that anyone that took the time to have a really good look at a Hunter 49 would be dissappointed, they seem very well built I know nothing of previous hunters. Just one eg, compare the keel of the hunter 49 and the catalina 470 to the other boats mentioned? manufactors don't use iron over lead because its better!

In regards to Catalinas ( in this case the 470) I challenge anyone to prove to me its not a very well constructed hull, I purchased one based on my research , hull samples, huge glassed in grid, collision bulk head etc etc.

I listen to lots of talk regarding boats and often I think people just repeat stuff they hear often from someone that heard it from someone else etc.

I encourage anyone that is looking at a boat to educate themselves on that particular boat via reputable sources as well as physically climbing around them and understanding the things they are looking at ,like liners, how bulkheads are held in place, robustness of steering systems etc etc, educate yourself.

I see the Amel 50 is being released, its alot different from super maramus, yet a friend of mine assures me its equally well built, the reality is she wouldn't know (lovely person btw)! yet if my Catalina had twin rudders?

Alot of none substantiated facts when it comes to boat talk influenced by long term predijustice initiated by bar talk and cruisers forums :-)

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by AJPT

Here's my 10 pence worth.

My partner and I have trailed the boat shows for 3 years now, spent hours on the internet reading reviews etc, spoke to as many different people in the sailing industry as possible, some friends, some racers, some cruisers, liveaboard couples and manufactures. Some days I felt I was going round in circles.

To cut to the chase Hanse for us wins every time in nearly all aspects. Sailors of boats like swans, oyster etc have said to us, saw one of those Hanse 575 or 545 the other day, wow what a boat.

My mate helmed a 575 on round the island race and he said it was unbelievable, it was quite rough round the back of the island, no one got wet at the helm, my other mate was on a boat that was over taken by that 575 and said the same, he said it was hauling arse.

Build quality is good, dealer network is much better than it used to be, choose wisely seems to be the order of the day.

At Dusseldorf boat show we went on everything over 2 days, 10-6pm.

Out of all the production boats, Hanse for us is leaps and bounds ahead. We went on the grand soleil 46 lc, fine boat indeed, very nice then went straight on a Hanse 588 there after, could hardly tell the difference in interior and exterior quality, difference was one was 46ft the other was 57ft, same price! I know what I'd choose.

Wauquiez 48 was fantastic, if we were going for a more bluewater orientated vessel I'd choose one of those, the wood workmanship was very high class. Interestingly​ wauquiez have just bought out a new 42 pilot saloon, looks very nice.

Jeanneau I would put at the bottom of the list, went on the whole range at the show and they are cheap and badly finished, I would not invest my own money in one at all, I stood on the new jeanneau 53 and observed the reactions of the public coming on and off of it and how long they spent on the boat. Most people were in and out and I could see people looking at the same things I had noticed, picking up on the sub standard workmanship. I watched a woman in her 60's struggle to get from the aft down on to the bathing platform as the design was so poor, that was on land, not in the water!

Beneteau are nice, bit like a ford focus I guess, you know what your getting it will do the job and get you there.

Dufour was nice but again I'd put it slightly above beneteau but below Hanse in overall workmanship and design features.

Spoke to a yacht charter business owner from Croatia (bare in mind he doesn't work for any brand) he told us to stay away from jeanneau, he also said dufour used to make nice boats but something has happened the last couple of years and they seem to be not as high standard as they once were.

I asked him why he feels this way, his reply, I run a fleet of boats of all makes and sizes I know which ones will cause me trouble Monday morning and which ones won't, whilst standing on a Hanse, pointing down, these ones won't!

Take of that what you will, everything is subjective of course, I started off not knowing very much about the different brands a few years back now I can safely say what I do and don't like and why.

In a fantasy world of course we'd all be sailing in Amel 55 or HB 54 but not everyone can afford them and I do think you have to like what you live on not buy it because everyone else has told you that you won't be 'bluewater' unless your own a centre cockpit yacht with rich mahogany everywhere, tiny windows and 100 lines on deck to trip over.

Sailing zatara on their Oceanis 55 are now in the Pacific, when they first started they didn't know the pointy end to the blunt end, their production boat has seen them right so far.
Vagabond sailed round the world on a bene 42, 10,000 miles in Riley was still calling the galley a kitchen and the bows the front.

Buy what you like but do weigh up all the pros and cons of each vessel, boat shows are great for this a spreadsheet works well too, depends how geeky you want to go.

It depends how you look at these boats? Eg you mention Grand Soliel, the hull of this boat is superior to many of the other boats you mentioned, the steel frame laminated into the hull gives incredible strength, if you are comparing (not saying you are) them on looks then that's subjective. Are we talking about the epoxy built Hanses or non epoxy, big difference.
I had a oyster owner talking to me about his boat the other day, nice bloke, and he knows that he has the best built boat in the marina, but here's the thing, after a number of disscusions with him I realized he knows very little about boats and boat construction! so I can only assume he really dosent know if his boat is built well or not. Btw Oysters may be a wonderfully built boat, I don't know, never looked into them, never climbed around them and know nothing about them, that's sort of my point.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

People who spend a lot of money on something will always find a way to justify it.

Wow! That's helpful to to Op.

Why not instead ask something useful and thought provoking like:

What are your prospective cruising plans? What do you see your family doing with the boat? Caribbean, Med, South Pacific, circumnavigation? Is style important or function? All these are important considerations in how one goes about selecting a yacht.

A couple I know in Ibisa are very comfortable living aboard their Hanse 54 and sailing around the Balerics, but maybe a different boat would have been their first choice if their destination was to discover Southern Chile or the northern fjords of Norway.

It's not just about one boat vs another boat, the yacht needs to be matched with the needs of the individual.

[AJPT]

I had the epoxy built Hanse in mind yes, 540, 470, 630 and 545. They are epoxy with steel frame laminated in, very stiff and strong. I spoke to Hanse asked why they don't make epoxy anymore and they said that the weight of the boats, time and cost had factured the change to epoxy resin built instead, still epoxy but less of it, they say they get the same results but less weight.

[AJPT]

Originally Posted by AJPT

I had the epoxy built Hanse in mind yes, 540, 470, 630 and 545. They are epoxy with steel frame laminated in, very stiff and strong. I spoke to Hanse asked why they don't make epoxy anymore and they said that the weight of the boats, time and cost had factured the change to epoxy resin built instead, still epoxy but less of it, they say they get the same results but less weight.

Just re read that, got my wires crossed. Epoxy is lighter vinylester or polyester is heavier. On a 50ft boat epoxy can be up to 1000kg lighter.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by AJPT

I had the epoxy built Hanse in mind yes, 540, 470, 630 and 545. They are epoxy with steel frame laminated in, very stiff and strong. I spoke to Hanse asked why they don't make epoxy anymore and they said that the weight of the boats, time and cost had factured the change to epoxy resin built instead, still epoxy but less of it, they say they get the same results but less weight.

When I was looking at European built boats I narrowed it down to grand soliels and Hanses due the hull builds. Bang for buck the elan 434 were on the list, not built as well (imho) as the above but reasonable , excellent value, but different market than the hanses your interested in.
The hanse keels , design and depth (not all) as well as interior quality were also not to my liking. Also the jafa rudders worry me a little.

[double u]

without wanting to offend you, AJPT, "wood workmanship was very high class" disqualifies you. The quality of a sailboat is first & foremost determined by the quality of it's mouldings, hull & deck - & how are you going to judge that at a boatshow? You either have to be a composite technichian & be present during moulding (remember: temperature, humidity,...is critical!) or do some destructive testing.
as former basemanager at a charterbase I can assure you, that we never judged boatquality by moulding, but by what broke down during charters & how quick & easy it was to fix. this meant quality of installations, accessability, reliability of components like fridges, engines, windlasses, cookers,...
& regarding Wauquieuz: an old friend of mine had the yard-crew come several times during the warranty period & still did not manage to fix serious delamination & moulding-quality issues. his verdict was damning!