New Monohull Trends.

[lyl]

I've noticed that the new ~ 30ft to 40 ft monohulls come with large cockpits and double steerings / w double rudders. They are getting larger and larger in the width. Looks attractive 'at first,' but I still am wondering if there are any monohulls with single steering and single rudder - and not that beefier at all. I think Catalina provides that upto her 40ft models. What other mass production new monohulls have that?

[chrisr]

since designers and owners became aware of the advantages of wider sterns, anything over say 35' becomes difficult to see / sit out to each side and still reach the wheel

options are a large diameter wheel (which can restrict movement through the cockpit) or twin wheels (which have cost / complexity issues but can offer redundancy)

think twin wheels win most of the time because the make it look like a race boat...

cheers,

[sandy stone]

Most J-boats, and I think X-yachts, have more traditional sterns.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by chrisr

since designers and owners became aware of the advantages of wider sterns, anything over say 35' becomes difficult to see / sit out to each side and still reach the wheel

options are a large diameter wheel (which can restrict movement through the cockpit) or twin wheels (which have cost / complexity issues but can offer redundancy)

think twin wheels win most of the time because the make it look like a race boat...

cheers,

Marketing reasons?

[lyl]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

Most J-boats, and I think X-yachts, have more traditional sterns.

I like J-boats.

[Joh.Ghurt]

If I remember correctly, the twin steering isn't "to look more like a race boat" but more are practical matter. When sailing the designers usually try to make the boat manoeuvrable from windward side. On a boat with a tiller, this is achieved with the extension pole, with wheel steering this was done by increasing the size to ridiculous proportions. To solve this one solution was the double wheel setup, with the inconvenience of everything needs to be installed twice. Another option becoming more popular is the pendular pedestal like on the new First 35 or Elan:


As to the dual rudder, this is also a consequence of the wider back. When sailing with the correct heel, the wider the stern the deeper the rudder most be to remain sufficiently in the water. Thus 2 rudders. The problem is that under engine, you can't use the prop-wash for steering any more, which is a pain in marinas. Some manufacturers like Sirius offer for their retractable keel versions a small third rudder in the prop-wash to solve this problem.

And last, real racers use tillers, even on 60' boats!

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

Most J-boats, and I think X-yachts, have more traditional sterns.

Modern X-yachts:

[wingssail]

[QUOTE=Joh.Ghurt;3457637]...2 rudders. The problem is that under engine, you can't use the prop-wash for steering any more, which is a pain in marinas.../QUOTE]

It's a funny thing, thinking that use of prop wash to help steering is important.

We almost always coast the last 50 meters into our slip, including the final turn, and the engine is not in gear, yet the boat is responsive to the helm even at those very slow speeds. So I doubt that prop-wash is essential for steering.

The same thing goes for reversing, jabs to the throttle just are not necessary. It is best to go slowly and steady, and plan ahead, and keep way off as much as possible.

We have a single, deep, rudder.

Note: A modern boat with a very high aspect radio keel needs to keep some speed in order for the keel to work. At slow speeds these keels can stall and the boat slides sideways. It complicates docking and coming in fast makes reliable reverse gear very important.

[lyl]

[QUOTE=wingssail;3457865]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

...2 rudders. The problem is that under engine, you can't use the prop-wash for steering any more, which is a pain in marinas.../QUOTE]

It's a funny thing, thinking that use of prop wash to help steering is important.

We almost always coast the last 50 meters into our slip, including the final turn, and the engine is not in gear, yet the boat is responsive to the helm even at those very slow speeds. So I doubt that prop-wash is essential for steering.

The same thing goes for reversing, jabs to the throttle just are not necessary. It is best to go slowly and steady, and plan ahead, and keep way off as much as possible.

We have a single, deep, rudder.

Note: A modern boat with a very high aspect radio keel needs to keep some speed in order for the keel to work. At slow speeds these keels can stall and the boat slides sideways. It complicates docking and coming in fast makes reliable reverse gear very important.

I would love to hear what Boatman61 thinks about this.

[rslifkin]

[QUOTE=wingssail;3457865]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

...2 rudders. The problem is that under engine, you can't use the prop-wash for steering any more, which is a pain in marinas.../QUOTE]

It's a funny thing, thinking that use of prop wash to help steering is important.

We almost always coast the last 50 meters into our slip, including the final turn, and the engine is not in gear, yet the boat is responsive to the helm even at those very slow speeds. So I doubt that prop-wash is essential for steering.

The same thing goes for reversing, jabs to the throttle just are not necessary. It is best to go slowly and steady, and plan ahead, and keep way off as much as possible.

We have a single, deep, rudder.

Note: A modern boat with a very high aspect radio keel needs to keep some speed in order for the keel to work. At slow speeds these keels can stall and the boat slides sideways. It complicates docking and coming in fast makes reliable reverse gear very important.

In my mind, it matters more for a back out and pivot in tight spaces rather than going into the slip bow first. If you can only steer with some forward way vs being able to direct prop wash, you can't pivot the boat in as small a space.

[belizesailor]

[QUOTE=wingssail;3457865]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

...2 rudders. The problem is that under engine, you can't use the prop-wash for steering any more, which is a pain in marinas.../QUOTE]



It's a funny thing, thinking that use of prop wash to help steering is important.



We almost always coast the last 50 meters into our slip, including the final turn, and the engine is not in gear, yet the boat is responsive to the helm even at those very slow speeds. So I doubt that prop-wash is essential for steering.



The same thing goes for reversing, jabs to the throttle just are not necessary. It is best to go slowly and steady, and plan ahead, and keep way off as much as possible.



We have a single, deep, rudder.



Note: A modern boat with a very high aspect radio keel needs to keep some speed in order for the keel to work. At slow speeds these keels can stall and the boat slides sideways. It complicates docking and coming in fast makes reliable reverse gear very important.

As you demonstrate by coasting, prop wash is not essential for steering, only water flow over the rudder is needed to maintain steerage, but prop wash can be very useful for maneuvering...esp on a monohull.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Modern X-yachts:
Attachment 243301

Lovely yacht

[Joh.Ghurt]

[QUOTE=rslifkin;3457946]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In my mind, it matters more for a back out and pivot in tight spaces rather than going into the slip bow first. If you can only steer with some forward way vs being able to direct prop wash, you can't pivot the boat in as small a space.

In my mind too. At low speeds in reverse, the rudder allows on my boat only for small adjustments. If the bow get blown out of line by a gust, it usually can be easily corrected with the application of a healthy dose of prop-wash to the rudder. At least that's how it is on my 40 year old boat with a skeg-rudder.

[Fore and Aft]

We converted our custom designed yacht (10 meters x 3.5 meters) from twin rudders to single rudder and improved our docking performance a 100%. Backing out of the marina was hopeless until we had some speed up and even berthing was harder without being able to get some wash over the rudders instantly. If our bow was deeper in the water I would have installed a bow thruster as I love the feel of sailing on tracks that the twin rudders give you.
Cheers

[RogerC]

Originally Posted by lyl

I still am wondering if there are any monohulls with single steering and single rudder - and not that beefier at all. What other mass production new monohulls have that?

Mystery 35. Maybe the Mystery 43 also if any get built.