need your help plz

[wannasail]

Howdy folks, I am so excited to be able to start our sailing adventure again, on the west coast this time.
Any opinions on this boat would be greatly appeciated.


http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/p...g_id=1634&url=

[Euro Cruiser]

Wanna, the comments you *need* to hear should be driven by your sailing plans, so I'd suggest you repost and share those. In general, Roughwater sailboats were built in Taiwan as an adjunct product to their motoryacht line. It has all the salty characterm, sweet sheer but also disadvantages of other 70's cruising boats, specially Taiwan-built boats. It appears to be underballasted (with the ballast steel punchings in a fiberglass slurry or concrete? do you know?), overweight, lots of wetted surface, a small boat made smaller by that pointy stern with its limited buoyancy and storage, and of course one worries about the condition of all that wood (especially the decks and their fastenings...and is that the original wood mast?). OTOH it seems clean & well cared for, sweet in appearance, it has significant cruising gear added, and it's great to see a 8 ton boat with a tiller - a far better choice than a wheel for that cockpit.

Where (and how) will you be sailing the boat? And have you thought about its ability to carry a cruising load (if that's your plan), maintain at least acceptable freeboard (a bit less than preferable offshore, it always seemed to me...) an deal with the inevitable light/variable winds one finds on occasion? I emphasize the 'use' thing because this boat easily attracts the heart and is easy on the eye, but it may need to overcome some build & design issues to satisfy the head.

Jack

[wannasail]

I seem to have a definite preference for the look of the boat. We started last year on the east coast, did much research and had an immediate connection to the Tayana 37. We had two T-37s before finally deciding this spring that we were too far from home, and didn't have the experience/knowledge to sail that boat. So we sadly sold it. Even the wonderful Bob Perry agreed a T-37 wasnt the correct choice for us to learn on. I've taken ASA classes 101- 103.
We are now ready to purchase another boat to learn on, sail coastal, to Catalina, Baja, just get sailing. There are obviously many many choices, I also want to look at and older Pearson and Islander. Suggestions are so appreciated.

[Euro Cruiser]

Wanna, given the normally light conditions you'll find in SoCal sailing and your limited cruising plans, almost any boat will be minimally suitable...and this boat certainly falls above that standard. Personally, if building your sailing & local cruising skills are my reasons to buy & own a boat, I would be choosing one o f the relatively light displacement, local designs which would be more enjoyable for SD Bay and SoCal sailing. This might be a previous generation Cal, Ericson, Islander or similar, or one of the ubiquitous Catalinas or Beneteaus.

However, most of us choose boats as much with our eyes and our heart as we do with our heads, and this salty looking cutter is apparently what your eyes and heart yearn for...and that's as good a reason as any other. Just don't overlook the fact that those Plain Jane alternatives are well known by surveyors, some of them have active owners groups who can be a great resource to newer, less experienced sailors, they will be much easier to care for, and they probably can't hide as many surprises as this Taiwan-built boat. And this boat will surely not sail as well in light airs, which is mostly what you will see. I guess all I'm saying is to go in with your eyes wide open to what you are NOT choosing, as well as what you are. Good luck to you!

Jack

[Jim H]

Sailing a wide range of boats before owning something large never seems like a bad idea. We joined a club in the Portland area that allows us to sail 20-37 footers, and for more variety we can charter a wide range of boats in Puget Sound.

It seems like we all start with the idea that a heavy "safe" cruiser is the way to go, but sailing some of the new designs can be real eye opening. Just last weekend we were doing over 7 knots in moderate wind in a modern 37 and having a great time.

So, owning in the long run is great, but sailing everything you can beforehand is a fun experience -- and don't forget to give the lighter, fin keel boats a chance.

[wannasail]

I have been thinking about why I choose the boats I do and I think it is initially what I perceive as safety. Heavier boats w/a full keel. It seems if we are going anywhere out in the ocean I want the most capable boat we can afford.
But we learned the lesson that the heavier boats only really get moving in heavier weather.
The "problem" comes from the fact that we skipped the early learning phase on small light boats.

Am I correct to assume a heavy full keel cruiser and a light quick to respond coastal sailboat to learn on are not going to be found in the same boat?

If that’s basically correct then when we go to San Diego next week to look at boats, if we purchase the boat I am drawn to
-so we can live the boating life and dream of sailing to far off places – the key is to supplement that by taking Jims suggestion of joining a club and/or getting the experience we need on other boats.
Thanks for helping me think this through.

[BC Mike]

Let me first say that I prefer a light fractionally rigged boat. I have no desire to sail on a long keeled heavy boat.
But for cruising it is possible to go too light as it is to go too heavy. As an ultimate safety factor you can make the light boat non sinkable.
I would chose something in the middle, as in a moderate displacement boat. For a 36 foot boat that suggests to me a maximum of about 13000 pounds and maybe a minimum of around 9000. These are guidelines as there are many variables.
More later

Michael

[Paul L]

...what I perceive as safety. Heavier boats w/a full keel. ....
....
Am I correct to assume a heavy full keel cruiser and a light quick to respond coastal sailboat to learn on are not going to be found in the same boat?

I think you have used the operable word here perceived . Do you have any evidence that heavy full keel are actaully safer? Most of the extreme storms that have been studied, like Fastnet, Sydney Hobart, Queens Birthday, seem to show long waterlines do better than short waterlines. This is not displacement, it is length. You obviously can't have a 'heavy boat' that is also a 'light boat'. You can have a moderate weight boat that performs well in a wide range of wind conditions and is designed and capable of ocean crossings.

[Euro Cruiser]

Wanna:

First, I think you should be praised for maintaining an open mind and inviting alternative views in the face of initially being attracted to one kind of boat. Good for you.

Discussions about 'light vs. heavy' and 'safe vs. unsafe' aside (which I don't think will prove helpful to you in the near term), my recommendation is that you need to revisit your initial plans with your spouse/partner for confirmation. That's Step 1 because all things should flow from there. I have not heard you describe ambitious cruising plans, and so I think you make it tougher on yourself to try and find a boat that is going to be responsive in SoCal's light airs but also give you any kind of 'ultimate' cruising capability. After much time and experience, you voice the plan of hoping to visit the Mexican coast (and return). That is the most ambitious part of your plans as you describe them here, but most boats in the 10M/34' LOA category are capable, if properly equipped and sailed, of voyaging in-season to Mexico and back.

OTOH what I hear you saying *mostly* is that you two want to take a step back and reground yourselves in the sailing/boathandling basics, aboard a boat that will maximize the learning, allow you some modest, safe cruising...and offering some fun and comfort, too. Moreover, you want to do that on a relatively small budget, and that's a reasonable goal, too. Given the above, my priorities in your shoes would be as follows:
1. On your upcoming trip, shop not just for boats - a wide range of boats - but for marinas. Visit the SD Harbor Police office (across from the airport and the USCG amphib apron) and speak with an officer there about the environmental, political and economic overview of the Bay; what's happening (and why) that affects boating & boat ownership. Do the same thing when working with a broker. Along with both these sources, by using the local throw-away mullet wrappers, and perhaps your friend Google, track down the sailing clubs, evaluate their locations and fleets, and see how you react to the programs - educational and social - they offer beyond basic boat rentals. IOW introduce yourself to the area, what options it offers, note your own reactions to what you find, and at the same time get a sense for the market.
2. After relocating, initially consider renting rather than buying. Not just so you will learn more about your choices (for that area, in that boat market) but also so you allow yourselves the time to shop boats for sale in the locations you find most desirable for you. My reaction to sailing on SD Bay is there are some HUGE differences (not just in cost but also ocean access, winds, other boat traffic and more) to be found among marinas in the different parts of the Bay (not to mention a bit further up the coast, Mission Bay or Oceanside). One of the easiest ways to find the right slip is to find the right boat in it.

I'm sure we'll all look forward to a 'trip debrief' after you return, so don't forget to come back to us with your impressions. And good luck to a fun, productive visit.

Jack

[Jim H]

wannasail once whispered in the wind:

But we learned the lesson that the heavier boats only really get moving in heavier weather.
The "problem" comes from the fact that we skipped the early learning phase on small light boats.

Wanna, I like your posts because you have an ASA 103 qualification (like I have), but you also had experience with owning a Tayana 37.

At the moment, my wife and I love a 1975 Camper Nicholson 32 that's for sale and we could afford if we wanted to. There's all sorts of things we like about it (blue water capable, strongly made, long keel, etc.).

At the same time, I read Jeff H's posts, which continually kind of question the wisdom of "long keel boats being safest and best for beginners and long range cruisers, and those who want to be...)."

The bottom line, it seems, is that the there are costs to having the long keel, heavy displacement, and 30+ year old boat. As you found with the Tayana, light wind performance could be less than adequate. Getting around in tight marinas could be harder. Resale could take longer.

So, for us, the plan is coastal cruising for the next 10 years or so, hopefully leading to some ocean crossing after that. Ergo, we don't need the compromises of the Camper Nic 32 yet (like the small, deep cockpit). If our intermediate goals are just coastal (up to two months in the inside passage to Alaska), then a lighter, easier to maneuver, better in light winds, and easier to resell boat makes better sense.

Others may want or need the blue water boat right off the bat, but moving more slowly up the ladder might make more sense. If we went for the blue water boat right now, when we still have two kids, the small cockpit, lack of an aft cabin, narrower beam, etc., may all be more expensive than they're worth if they aren't needed.

Good luck on your boat search!

[wannasail]

Back from our San Diego trip, here are some impressions,
The Roughwater 33, my husband said no immediately, not enough headroom too much exposed wood. I never even stepped aboard that one. Next we saw a Brandlmayr 32’, very clean, fiberglass over wood, carpet sole, not for us. The Islander 36 had a huge salon, but not an efficient use of space, the forward berth and head were too small. The Islander 32 was ok, interior dark and small feeling. I was noticing the freeboard after Eurocruiser pointed that out in the Roughwater. High freeboard on the Islander 32. The boat we made on offer on was an Ericson 35’. We looked at 4 Ericsons and I did a quick read and research to see that in 3 of them I could see the potential chainplate/water intrusion problems. Gas engines are also out. The one we fell for had been raced and so well cared for, the interior was teak/mahogany, the table folded up and away making a perfectly roomy salon. We didn’t get that one, no to the offer.
San Diego area was great, I understand now distance of marinas to the ocean etc. I have also accepted that I just need a boat, not a blue water cruiser at this time. When I do a Yachtworld search under $40k, diesel, 6’2” headroom min, there are Catalinas, Cal Mk II, Roberts, Irwin 34, even Hunter is looking acceptable because I understand now I just want to get into the bay and get the sails up.
I’ll keep reading/searching and we’ll be going back in a few weeks.