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Old 16-02-2021, 01:02   #46
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

With any EU-build ship, you have the security of qualified build standards to CE rules. They must be declared by the manufacturer. No one will be plastic on the oceans. Even none european builders build to this standards, if the like to sell in EU.
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Old 16-02-2021, 01:47   #47
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

Take four dinghies, one each made of wood, fiberglass, aluminum and an inflatable. Tie them all to a steel dock. Come back a week later. The wood dink will be splinters, the fiberglass won't have a rubrail, the aluminum dink will have lots of dents and the inflatable will be just fine. After all the inflatable is just a big fender. Ergo use a lot of fenders or take the consequences.
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Old 16-02-2021, 03:53   #48
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

3 factors IMO are to be considered first and foremost.
1. Intended near future use. Not 5-7-10 years down the road "planning to circumnavigate, etc" but this coming weekend use or this/next season. You'll have time and knowledge to get the right boat for that circumnavigation when the time comes.
2. Budget. And be realistic. Unless you have a trust fund or comfortably retired with a six figure annual pension no reliance on current empolyment income when budgetting for that boat. Only what you have in the bank. And that should include the kitty for repairs, upgrades, etc. Boats are not investments or hedges, they are (usually) expensive and demanding toys and hobbies unless you liveaboard 24/7.
3. Boat's condition. Because for a newbie who has no time or inclination or the budget to take on a project a more recent well cared for Bene or Hunter will be a better solution then a decrepit unloved Swan or a Hinckley, even if free for the takers. And you can only really judge the condition by seeing the boat in person and developing a sense and a feel to differentiate between a total unsalvageable project and a mere "cosmetic patina" that any boat develops unless regularly used and cared for by the owner.

And as an aside. See if you can find under the radar make or model. Up until late 80s there were a lot of small somewhat regional boatbuilders in US. The quality varied considerably but quite a few made pretty good boats which at the time were competing with the higher end models. These builders were kind of in boatbuilders limbo - not large enough to gain savings from mass production yet not known enough to get the right traction among the higher end buyers. And their production runs were often 1-2 hulls a month, almost custom compared to mass builders. Many (most?) of them folded by the early 90s and not all because of the quality. The builder of my make once said in an interview that once the price of components skyrocketed they just couldn't produce at a price point which will allow room for profit without sacrificing the quality. They only made about 80 of my size hulls (36') in 4.5-5 years of production, about 1.5 hulls per month. When new they were selling for about $80K compared to Catalinas at $45-50K and Hunters at $40K. But today very few people outside of New England know of that brand compared to Sabres or Pearsons so the prices reflect this lack of brand name cache. Which is what you want as a buyer.
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Old 16-02-2021, 06:01   #49
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela79 View Post
These two sentences make a lot of sense to me: "Some are made to be the comfortable equivalent of a condo at anchor/dock/mooring" and "Another factor is simply prestige - just like cars, some boat makers make boats for the masses, and some make yachts for...not...the masses. After all, a Ford and a Ferrari are both made from the same stuff."

So the Jeanneaus and Beneteaus are the comfortable condos not really meant to cross oceans. Just out of curiosity what is the concern of sailing these production boats across the ocean? Mast blows off? Rudder falls off? Whole hull cracks in 40 knot winds? I'm not being facetious I just would really like to know. Thank you for the replies!
Forward bulkheads make seriously disturbing noises crossing the gulf stream on the way to Bermuda?
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Old 16-02-2021, 07:00   #50
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

Quote:
. Just out of curiosity what is the concern of sailing these production boats across the ocean? Mast blows off? Rudder falls off? Whole hull cracks in 40 knot winds? I'm not being facetious I just would really like to know. Thank you for the replies!
This is what I was truing to get at with my risk post above.

Different types of boats have different vulnerabilities, some related to build, some to design. It is a bit complex and I surely do not have all the answers.

The keel falls off, not common but dramatic. Bolt on keels.

The rudder falls out. Some rudders are supported better from the bottom by a skeg or keel. Some fall out and leave a below water line hole, bad. But missing a rudder id ocean is a problem. Sometimes the material surrounding the rudder becomes stressed and either leaks or disables the rudder.

Mast comes down. Depends probably more in maintenance than anything else. But also the number if wires holding it up. Two extremes would be a B&R rig which may have only 3 wires, any one failure will bring it down. The opposite extreme is our big boat with 14 wires/lines for a single mast. This has its own disadvantages but is not as likely to collapse.

Fire, probably the one serious thing that is not very dependent in boat design.

Not normally catastrophic but a huge PITA is line wrapped in the prop. Boats with their props in apertures are less susceptible.

I am sure that I am leaving out a lot, an awful lot. I am just trying to give uou a “flavor” of these endless discussions.

There is no “best” boat, just a “good enough” boat. Then accept the attendant risks and live your life.
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Old 16-02-2021, 10:36   #51
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

Island Time - What make is your boat? I agree with that advice. There are some great boats out there that are much cheaper for various reasons, compared to other boats that are much better known that were more heavily advertised and "sold."
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Old 17-02-2021, 12:52   #52
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

One more thought. I am 70 and this is our third sailboat. We bought a Jeanneau 45 2007, 6 years ago. We normally cruise the East Coast, ICW and of course everyone goes to the Bahamas. I planned on wanting to go to BVI on our own boat, but hurricanes changed that plan. This year we are staying home for the season because of Covid. Last year we spent 7 months on our boat before we left the boat in Miami and came home for the lockdown otherwise we would have stayed out two months longer. We had also been gone for most of 2017-2018. Go home for 3 months of summer. When we were picking our boat I was concerned if is a Jeanneau was strong enough for Ocean sailing just in case---but knowing we would only cruise the East Coast and Islands. Someone told me to look at the Rally's were people cross the oceans each year. When I did that I saw it was the most popular boat out there because it is a production boat and more people can afford it and it is easier to get parts, etc. Before we bought this boat we charted different brands in the BVI and Tahiti and Bora Bora and we discovered we really liked the space this boat offers. We loved our previous boat but I wanted built in air, a generator, and a windless, and my favorite---push button sails. I could barely left the sail on a 42ft and wanted to keep sailing longer on a boat I could handle myself if something happened to my husband who is the real sailor. We also have plenty of space for family to visit. We have 3 cabins, one is our garage where we store our bicycles and supplies but can quickly made up for sleeping when needed. I like having two other cabins so when snoring gets loud I move to other end of the boat and when traveling I can easily sleep on couches in main cabin. A larger boat gives you more options. I had thought to sell our house and just live on a boat full-time but when I had trouble getting rid of things and discovered storing my junk would cost as much as my mortgage we decided to keep it. Now with Covid I am happy we did. To do it over again, I wouldn't buy it brand new but look for a boat a couple of years old that other people have put there love into it
, they depreciate real fast the first years like a car. A lot of people buy a brand new boat without really knowing if they would like it and end up selling it sooner than later. We have meet several couples where they went to the BVI loved it so much came home and bought a boat without appreciating it's really a lot of work. I really enjoy the work and the challenge. It gives me a reason to stay fit, plan and I am always learning new things.
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Old 17-02-2021, 15:03   #53
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

Quote:
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Hi All,

...some older boats like Shannon, Amel, Hallberg-Rassy etc are so much more expensive than many comparably sized newer boats.

....... I prefer the aesthetic of a newer boat - a Jeanneau 45 DS for example - over the older boats but I also want to be safe. We are not planning on crossing oceans, more like coastal cruising or trips to the Bahamas - as we don't have the experience or knowledge......
Re: higher prices between brands it's no different than any other product you might buy. Some are built to higher standards of quality using better materials. Typically this results in more durability, better performance and more robustness. Mostly it is for these benefits that you pay extra. Of course you will also pay a premium for the reputation and prestige of certain brands; a Rolls will cost more than a Cadillac will cost more than a Chevy Impala. All will get you safely from points A to B.

For your intended purpose a newer used production boat will be fine, subject to survey of course. You will be using the vessel for exactly the purpose it was designed. A real-world-tested production boat like Jeanneau and Beneteau will safely take more punishment than you are comfortable in subjecting it to at this stage of your new adventure.

Happy Hunting!
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Old 18-02-2021, 06:04   #54
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

Let me share my journey and hopefully you find it helpful. I used to own a power boat Carver Mariner 36' years ago and in 2019 I wanted to learn to sail and get a sailboat. I completed ASA 101 and became a member of the Annapolis sailing school, which gave me access to their 24' Rainbows (pure sailboat without power) to sail over the summer. In Sep 2019 I took ASA 103/104 on a Bene 41, which I sailed for a week with furling everything, auto pilot, etc. I decided to get a boat in the Spring of 2020 and was asking very similar questions here. You may still find a thread I started that got a fair bit of responses Jeanneau vs Amel. In addition to construction and rigging you also need to consider tank sizes, water maker, generator, electronics, etc. I got an opportunity to also sail Seawind 1190 catamaran that I really liked as a coastal trip in FL. The best advice that I can share is figure out how and where you will use it. I ended up buying 1988 Catalina C34 that I will use on the Chesapeake to gain more experience and to figure out what I want long term. It is very different to spend 30K vs 300K on Jeanneau, Bene, etc. to millions of dollars on Amel, HR, Hylas, etc. Hope this helps.
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Old 19-02-2021, 06:39   #55
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

Well, you won’t run aground as often if you take classes, learn how to read charts, and pay attention to where you are. Practice coastal sailing before taking off. Boats react differently in different conditions, and it is best to learn your boat; way more so than switching from an SUV to a Prius, different boats are wildly different. Our little boat is great for poking around the Chesapeake, but I wouldn’t try for New Zealand, tho I understand it has been done.
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Old 19-02-2021, 07:58   #56
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

There is a guy with a Tartan 37 for sale on this CF page. That is a good boat for the Bahamas. I have a C&C 37 up here in Canada, it is a good boat as well, just a little deeper, but sails very well. New boats are financeable, once the boat passes a certain age, borrowing against it becomes tough and the price falls away quickly. The reality of the issue should be that the price will rebound at some point but owning an asset like a boat requires time, maintenance and money. At some point people throw up their hands and give up. The rest revolves around 'scuttlebutt' A good boat was good when built, still is. Cosmetics and decor might change and might be more important for those who stay at the dock but if you are going sailing, the design and characteristics of the product are more important.
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Old 19-02-2021, 08:05   #57
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

I've been playing offshore for 50 years, both racing and cruising. From the 70s onward, the boats I sailed in the SORC and on the Great Lakes were very different then boats are today, for they were generally designed to go out onto big water.

I have, in the past decade, raced 600 NM in the South China Sea in a 45' Beneteau, cruised the Greek islands in older 40' Beneteaus, and crossed the Med, the Atlantic, and the Caribbean in an '80s vintage S&S 50.

Which would I prefer to sail a distance over big water in? Hands down, the older boat. It will not be as breezy in the galley in a marina, nor as suited for entertaining non-sailing guests, but one can get from point to point inside with a handhold within arm's length. Whereas the more 'modern' boats more suitable for entertaining are, in my view, too scary to take onto rambunctious water, for getting hurt down below is more a question of 'when', not 'if'.

So the real question is 'what do you want this boat to do'? Short distances, coastwise sailing, marina entertaining? Get a modern boat with a huge cockpit and an open-plan saloon. Getting from A to B no matter what the weather or sea state? Get a boat designed and built for that purpose (almost certainly costing more) and accept that a boat that's suited for one of these purposes won't be all that wonderful for the other purpose.
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Old 19-02-2021, 08:48   #58
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

The main question to ask, is what do you plan to do with it?

If all you are going to do is short offshore hops, like to the Bahamas or something, then why pay for extra for a boat that you can cross the Atlantic in?

You can use that extra money to do a lot of things that are more fun than pointing out how much more blue water your boat is than the boat next to you, when you're both sailing in 15 feet of protected water.

To me, it's like somebody in a Ferrari bragging that his car will do 200 mph, who never takes it to a race track, and who has to obey the same speed limits that they guy with the Chevrolet does, that will only go 120. You paid a lot for an extra 80 mph that you really don't ever get to use.

If you have unlimited money, sure, why not? But, if don't, buy what you actually need.
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Old 19-02-2021, 09:01   #59
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

I worked for a sailing school that had some Jeanneau Deck Salon models. Nice boats though not my personal style. Did a couple deliveries across the Anegada Passage which may be one of the worst short passages anywhere in "Cruising Land." Boat was fine. The story in cruising is that safe sailors have safe passages. It is about you more than the boat.

My tip: If you like it you will use it and if you use it you'll have a good time.
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Old 19-02-2021, 09:33   #60
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Re: Need some help understanding differences...

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Angela:
...
You should have the experiential ballast of some PRACTICAL sailing before you spend your money. Doing that will serve you far better, as a novice, than trying to understand the complex considerations of boat design and their effect on the costs of boats.


Exactly what I would say.
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