Need help with a bad purchase

[mvweebles]

Appears the company sells and services general marine stuff, mostly outboards and small engines. They are not surveyors and make no claim to be (the following is opened in Chrome, should bring-up an option to translate from Italian).

Assistenza Tecnica

If nothing else, this highlights the need to attend the survey. I'm sorry for the OPs troubles. Will have to work to make the most of the situation. $500 for the survey is the least of it.

[Greatest Lakes]

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...800-cs-915047/

The boat in question? Depending on how much water damage there is, and whether or not the motor will turn at all, you might not be too bad off. The motor is the biggest bummer, but many of the people here find rebuilding a diesel to be a rewarding experience.
If not, now you know to stipulate your personal inspection before purchase, and always find your own surveyor.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Rohan

A sea trial is also part of the survey, or at least it was with mine. Even if they can't do a sea trial, how much effort does it take just to turn the key and see if the engine starts??

I have had a number of boats surveyed and a sea trial was never part of the survey. Surveys are frequently done on the hard - obviously a number of advantages to having access to the outside of the hull. In my experience, you really need to bring in a mechanic if you want a thorough evaluation of the engine and transmission.

[albertjizhang]

Thank you guys for the suggestions, I really appreciate it. I have paid for the survey. The surveyor whose actual job is a mechanic said he can do a engine check and maybe fix it, I kindly refused, because I’m not really comfortable to work with him anymore. I’ll see if I can get another mechanic to fix it to a point I can sail for 50nm to Venice where I can get a job and spend a year try to fix her up. During the period I’ll probably post a lot more entry level questions haha. I liked the boat enough( at the moment) and I would gratefully spend some more time and money.

I think of it this way, I paid for the history and the story,, so I’m gonna enjoy as much as I can. Lesson learned, and similar mistakes will not be made by me( I hope)

[Oeanda]

Best wishes to you. Please do keep posting.

[donradcliffe]

Unfortunately, you have learned the first rule about buying a boat. NEVER USE THE SURVEYOR THAT THE SELLOR'S BROKER RECOMMENDS.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Congrats welcome to boat ownership: surprise expenses and "opportunities" to learn about things like rebuilding a diesel. Yay!

Don't mean to sound preachy but you asked:

Your newbie mistake was in relying on a pre-purchase survey. Any survey, regardless of who did it. Mine missed big things! And the guy was fully qualified and well-intentioned too. Because surveys cannot be comphrensive

Here's the actual purpose of having a survey done: as leverage to negotiate price. NOT to get an idea of the actual issues with the boat. That's why it is 'pre purchase" - so you can use it to negotiate down prices. You don't rely on it for what needs fixin'

The fundamental lesson any boatowner learns: You cannot rely on ANYONE ELSE. No one loves your boat as much as you do. When you hire someone to do work on your boat, you cannot expect a good result without carefully watching them. This is just a fact. Good service providers are very rare. Good stainless steel welders, mechanics etc hen's teeth because this is a pretty unregulated industry. A household plumber or electrician is regulated much more carefully than a marine one. You honestly should have taken more time to learn about boats and this boat in particular. Furthermore, some things are not part of a standard pre-purchase survey. Mine did not include the rigging for example; that required a separate survey. Nor will things like leaks show up on a survey unless they've left some sign. So expecting a survey to be totally comprehensive is also wrong.

And the other new fundamental lesson: Mistakes will be made when you set out to do things you've never done before. You can torture yourself now with guesstimates about what the boat was worth vs. what you paid, or you can set out to rectify the situation & move forward

If it makes you any happier: Boat prices are determined primarily by vessel age. No matter how much work you do or don't do, not matter how many things you add to the boat, nobody ever gets their money back on a boat. YOu just don't expect to be financially ahead lol

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Unfortunately, you have learned the first rule about buying a boat. NEVER USE THE SURVEYOR THAT THE SELLOR'S BROKER RECOMMENDS.

Clearly people have never bought a boat in a foreign country.

Firstly you’ll likely have little choice depending on your native language. The selling broker will in almost all cases hand you a list of local surveyors , often about 2 , and you’ll be lucky to get any choice at all.
The alternative is flying in a surveyor , airfares , hotels , meals etc , very expensive. ( ands who’s to say the survey will be any better )

Sadly I agree , the best surveyor is “ you “ , most surveyors are superficial and hand out “ stock reports “ that tell you about the scratch on the saloon table and miss the fact the keel has fallen off.

In my opinion for €500 the OPs surveyor did quite a good job. Brevity is to be applauded

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In my opinion for €500 the OPs surveyor did quite a good job. Brevity is to be applauded

No fluff or boilerplate legalese to cover the rearend from lawsuits

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

No fluff or boilerplate legalese to cover the rearend from lawsuits

What grounds would you have for suing, most surveyors are “ straw men “ anyway , the survey seems a reasonable summary of the boat and the OP continued to complete the purchase

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Rohan

I'm going to disagree with most people here - I wouldn't pay 500 for that. That's not a freaking survey!!! That's a one sheet quick glance at the vessel. Hell, I would do that for you for free.

For example "The engine is somewhat dated even if it works". What?? So he didn't even start the engine....??

Maybe they do them differently in Italy, but it looks to me like the OP got ripped off twice - once by the boat seller, and again by the surveyor. At a minimum I would go to another surveyer in Italy and ask if that was normal.

It's not a question of what "you would pay". Unfortunately, the OP made a very legal but very vague contract where the only thing defined was the price of 500euro. A survey appears to have been completed, so the OP has no standing to refuse payment.

Surveyor typically does not run the engine or do a sea trial, unless specifically contracted. They might turn on the power to the electronics but they don't troubleshoot.

It's a pretty low quality survey but without a better contract, not much to be done about it. The surveyor met his contract terms, so the OP is obliged to meet his end (ie: pay up). As others have mentioned, maritime law heavily favors vendors as it's too easy for boat owners to slip out of port without paying...so it's easy to put a lien on the boat and make the OP's life miserable until he pays up.

That said, there were obvious and major red flags:
- Notes several areas of rot noted
- Sea chest needs replacement
- Frames are detaching from the hull.
- Entire head plumbing needs replacement
- Propane system needs work.
- Cushions and curtains need to be "thrown away".
- Engine needs complete maintenance...not sure the exact meaning but doesn't sound good.

This isn't to pick on the OP, he did his mea culpa at the start of the thread. But the surveyor clearly outlined major flaws in the boat.

Depending on the nature of the engine problems, it might be viable to get the boat operational for a couple thousand. It won't be pristine but usable while you put in some sweat equity.

Some thoughts for next time (or other newbies reading the thread):
- Don't use the broker/sellers surveyor. They have a conflict of interest. The med is a popular cruising area, so there are likely alternatives.
- Check for surveyor organization affiliation. Not sure for Europe but in N. America there are surveying organizations that provides guidance on what a survey should include.
- Get a written agreement for what the survey includes (ask for sample surveys so you know exactly what to expect), when it will be conducted and when the report will be delivered. You want pictures. Especially with different languages, pictures can clarify what the surveyor is seeing.
- Consider paying extra for sea trial, engine check, rigging check...these may be by different vendors.
- Try to be present for the survey. This allows you to ask questions or point out questionable things you see and get the surveyor's feedback.
- If you have a cruising friend ask them to go over the survey with you. You are in love with your new baby. They aren't.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by albertjizhang

Thank you guys for the suggestions, I really appreciate it. I have paid for the survey. The surveyor whose actual job is a mechanic said he can do a engine check and maybe fix it, I kindly refused, because I’m not really comfortable to work with him anymore. I’ll see if I can get another mechanic to fix it to a point I can sail for 50nm to Venice where I can get a job and spend a year try to fix her up. During the period I’ll probably post a lot more entry level questions haha. I liked the boat enough( at the moment) and I would gratefully spend some more time and money.

I think of it this way, I paid for the history and the story,, so I’m gonna enjoy as much as I can. Lesson learned, and similar mistakes will not be made by me( I hope)

Thank you for following up. Very classy of you, considering the beating you've just endured here.

If you choose to keep the boat, I hope you're successful with the minimum necessary fixes to enjoy her, warts and all, and that you remain in love. And that you ultimately get more than you paid back in great experiences and enjoyment.

Good luck, and ask away!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It's not a question of what "you would pay". Unfortunately, the OP made a very legal but very vague contract where the only thing defined was the price of 500euro. A survey appears to have been completed, so the OP has no standing to refuse payment.

Surveyor typically does not run the engine or do a sea trial, unless specifically contracted. They might turn on the power to the electronics but they don't troubleshoot.

It's a pretty low quality survey but without a better contract, not much to be done about it. The surveyor met his contract terms, so the OP is obliged to meet his end (ie: pay up). As others have mentioned, maritime law heavily favors vendors as it's too easy for boat owners to slip out of port without paying...so it's easy to put a lien on the boat and make the OP's life miserable until he pays up.

That said, there were obvious and major red flags:
- Notes several areas of rot noted
- Sea chest needs replacement
- Frames are detaching from the hull.
- Entire head plumbing needs replacement
- Propane system needs work.
- Cushions and curtains need to be "thrown away".
- Engine needs complete maintenance...not sure the exact meaning but doesn't sound good.

This isn't to pick on the OP, he did his mea culpa at the start of the thread. But the surveyor clearly outlined major flaws in the boat.

Depending on the nature of the engine problems, it might be viable to get the boat operational for a couple thousand. It won't be pristine but usable while you put in some sweat equity.

Some thoughts for next time (or other newbies reading the thread):
- Don't use the broker/sellers surveyor. They have a conflict of interest. The med is a popular cruising area, so there are likely alternatives.
- Check for surveyor organization affiliation. Not sure for Europe but in N. America there are surveying organizations that provides guidance on what a survey should include.
- Get a written agreement for what the survey includes (ask for sample surveys so you know exactly what to expect), when it will be conducted and when the report will be delivered. You want pictures. Especially with different languages, pictures can clarify what the surveyor is seeing.
- Consider paying extra for sea trial, engine check, rigging check...these may be by different vendors.
- Try to be present for the survey. This allows you to ask questions or point out questionable things you see and get the surveyor's feedback.
- If you have a cruising friend ask them to go over the survey with you. You are in love with your new baby. They aren't.

While all you say is “ in theory “ true , you have clearly no experience of buying in the med.

Unless you happen to be a native or speak the local language fluently , you will be immediately limited in how to determine the surveyors locally. Basically you have word of mouth ( awkward if you know few people ) , a web search ( not easy to determine quality ) or the selling broker or use one of the certification houses , YDBSA , RINA etc. Again hard to know what you’ll get

Selling brokers do not have preferred surveyors , they tend to recommend the surveyors who are actually in the local area, speak ( and importantly write ) your language and might actually be available to do a survey. There’s no point phoning some guy who has is 400 miles away , can’t get to you for three weeks and will charge you a fortune in travel expenses. This is especially true of you have signed a purchase agreement with a closing date.

Hence the reality , say in France or Greece ( where I have personal experience ) is the broker will simply print off a list of the local surveyors who can communicate with you, are typically not to far away , etc. You can throw a pin at a name if you wish. In practice the choice might be two to three names. In many cases ONE surveyor will do ALL the boat sales in a given area. leisure boat surveyors are rarely full time professionals , they often have a “ day job” or are retired etc. It’s not a lucrative career by any means.

It becomes especially awkward when crossing languages , surveyors May struggle to understand what you want , may struggle to construct good English prose etc.

Sure you can throw money at it. Fly in your expert surveyor ( from the US?. ) etc etc $$$$$$$$ etc.

Hence in theory you should track down that fluent , Verbose , scribe with exceptional industry pedigree and as pure as the driven snow blah blah

In practice you’ll take the brokers surveyor list , chat to some sailor in your hotel bar and typically throw a pin at a name.

Classification societies can be misleading , YDBDSA has minimal requirements , whereas RINA or DeNotskVeritas are demanding , but the surveyor could be 400 miles away.

[Bobby Lex]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Some thoughts for next time (or other newbies reading the thread):
- Don't use the broker/sellers surveyor. They have a conflict of interest. The med is a popular cruising area, so there are likely alternatives.
- Check for surveyor organization affiliation. Not sure for Europe but in N. America there are surveying organizations that provides guidance on what a survey should include.
- Get a written agreement for what the survey includes (ask for sample surveys so you know exactly what to expect), when it will be conducted and when the report will be delivered. You want pictures. Especially with different languages, pictures can clarify what the surveyor is seeing.
- Consider paying extra for sea trial, engine check, rigging check...these may be by different vendors.
- Try to be present for the survey. This allows you to ask questions or point out questionable things you see and get the surveyor's feedback.
- If you have a cruising friend ask them to go over the survey with you. You are in love with your new baby. They aren't.

+1. The OP's post is truly a cautionary tale of what not to do when buying your first boat.

It doesn't help that the internet is full of Youtube channels bragging "We're newbies and we bought a boat sight-unseen!" Or "We bought a boat off Craigslist for $5000.00, and we're sailing the Carribean!" Or "We just bought a trawler for $100.00!"

It raises unrealistic expectations among naive first-timers about the process of boat buying and the risks involved. The saying "You don't know what you don't know" should be emblazened on their checkbooks before they sign anywhere on the dotted line (in English and Italian, as it were).

Bob

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

+1. The OP's post is truly a cautionary tale of what not to do when buying your first boat.

It doesn't help that the internet is full of Youtube channels bragging "We're newbies and we bought a boat sight-unseen!" Or "We bought a boat off Craigslist for $5000.00, and we're sailing the Carribean!" Or "We just bought a trawler for $100.00!"

It raises unrealistic expectations among naive first-timers about the process of boat buying and the risks involved. The saying "You don't know what you don't know" should be emblazened on their checkbooks before they sign anywhere on the dotted line (in English and Italian, as it were).

Bob

No survey report will protect a buyer that decides to proceed in the face of a survey that raises several red flags.

The OPs issue wasn’t the survey , it was his decision to ignore its warnings or possibly more benignly he didn’t have the understanding to process correctly what he was told. But most people would read that and at very least then start to commission specialist advice or probably just walk away.

Newbie boat owners are in an invidious position , especially overseas in a foreign country. There isn’t an easy answer. I know loads of people that in the recent past have bought sight unseen , or only a cursory visit etc.