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Stewie12 · 16-06-2022, 12:21

Re surveyor. It is a civil matter not a police one and to get a lawyer to take the surveyor to court will cost at least another 500.

Rohan · 16-06-2022, 12:25

I'm going to disagree with most people here - I wouldn't pay 500 for that. That's not a freaking survey!!! That's a one sheet quick glance at the vessel. Hell, I would do that for you for free.

For example "The engine is somewhat dated even if it works". What?? So he didn't even start the engine....??

Maybe they do them differently in Italy, but it looks to me like the OP got ripped off twice - once by the boat seller, and again by the surveyor. At a minimum I would go to another surveyer in Italy and ask if that was normal.

Apollo366 · 16-06-2022, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Sounds like an ok project boat. As one would expect when paying only$15000.
Sounds like the problem is that you think you overpaid. Maybe so... maybe it's more work than you thought...but you could pay $100k for a boat and still have to spend a stack on it.

A learning experience.

But if you plug some leaks, you at least have a reasonably cheap waterfront holiday cottage in Italy.

Plenty of people spend that money to hang out in a new place for a few months and have an immersive experience and learn the language and lifestyle etc

This would be my advice, a nice "Waterfront Cottage/Condo" in a very nice country.

When given Lemon, make Lemonade!!

Wayne

psk125 · 16-06-2022, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohan

I'm going to disagree with most people here - I wouldn't pay 500 for that. That's not a freaking survey!!! That's a one sheet quick glance at the vessel. Hell, I would do that for you for free.

For example "The engine is somewhat dated even if it works". What?? So he didn't even start the engine....??

Maybe they do them differently in Italy, but it looks to me like the OP got ripped off twice - once by the boat seller, and again by the surveyor. At a minimum I would go to another surveyer in Italy and ask if that was normal.

According to the OP, paying for the survey and heeding the information in it would have saved him $14,500. Sounds like a good ROI on $500 to me. Surveyors don't run engines or hoist sails. That's what a sea trial is for. Maybe they turn on some switches to see what lights up. Maybe not if the batteries are dead. Asking another surveyor if a $500 survey is normal ignores what the OP and the broker asked him to do. (Which we don't know. Perhaps he was told to look over the boat for a morning and write up a report. Perhaps four or five hours of work?)

PaulCrawhorn · 16-06-2022, 12:49

$500 is cheap for even a quick casual survey.

Ideally done before the sale is consummated.

Live and learn

**Madehn** · 16-06-2022, 13:00

I get you are upset but get used to this. YOUR BOAT YOUR DECISION YOUR CONSEQUENCES. meaning that you made the decision to move forward you signed the purchase funds over you chose to go with that surveyor you chose to move forward without being there for survey. In short you made a series of decisions that have led to your present situation. Yeah that survey is not much but my survey took 3 days and cost a couple of grand. Also surveyors don’t normally do rigging or engines, you hire someone separately for those two. IMHO the surveyor gave you about what you paid for. Pay the man and chalk it up to lesson learned. Be a little cautious about pouring money into this boat. Get a good surveyor and find out what it really needs with you there asking questions. Then find an honest broker and ask them what would boat be worth in average condition. THEN make decisions as to throw some more money at it or cut losses by selling it for whatever you can get and moving on. Tough one and I know it stings but take heart others have done the same for way more money. Too soon old too late wise. Best of luck.

belizesailor · 16-06-2022, 13:01

The cruising world is littered with stories like yours. Newbie buys a boat because its "cheap" and then gradually comes to the realization that they will need to spend more money than they paid for the boat (sometimes a lot more) to get it back into sub par condition. Usually you are better off just to buy one in at least average condition to start with. There are boats I know of which have featured in this sad story several times...and still sit rotting where the first story played out...waiting for another foolish newbie to come along and play out this familiar story again. The discouraged new owners usually waste some more time and money on the boat before abandoning it yet again. You can find such boats and stories at most popular cruiser meccas.

These stories often feature surveys provided by the owner/broker, or a surveyor recommend by them, which the naïve newbie foolishly accepted (or no survey at all !).

I would not waste time and money trying get your money back from those involved. You are highly unlikely to be successful. I suggest you just pay the surveyor to avoid more trouble for you and your boat on his home turf.

I think you've got two obvious options. One, cut your losses: get rid of the boat quickly for whatever someone will give you for it (likely WAY below what you paid for it...like the estimated $5K). Holding on to the boat waiting for a Buyer at a higher price is just going to dig a deeper hole. Two: bite the bullet, accept the bad decision and impending loss, fix the boat up and enjoy her anyway. Sure it makes no financial sense (boats never do), but if you prevail through the restoration ordeal (and it almost certainly WILL be an ordeal, and an expensive one) you will at least likely get some enjoyment out of her. However, if you are like most newbies who are doomed to play out this sad drama yet again, you probably lack both the skills and the funds to execute on option two (no offense intended, that's just a common feature of this story).

A third modern day option is to crowd fund the restoration. Google YouTube for those who have done exactly this.

Oeanda · 16-06-2022, 13:25

Bite the bullet and just pay the guy for his little cash grab. Anyone on my dock could have written that thing up given an hour and $100 and/or a case of beer. As for the boat, if you’re not feeling the love, I don’t think things are going to get better. I bought a fixer upper and have no regrets, but we loved her well before purchase and have ever since, so things have gone well. Only the irrational love affair can make this thing worthwhile IMO, so if you’re not feeling it- I’d get out now before digging a bigger hole.

belizesailor · 16-06-2022, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oeanda

Bite the bullet and just pay the guy for his little cash grab. Anyone on my dock could have written that thing up given an hour and $100 and/or a case of beer. As for the boat, if you’re not feeling the love, I don’t think things are going to get better. I bought a fixer upper and have no regrets, but we loved her well before purchase and have ever since, so things have gone well. Only the irrational love affair can make this thing worthwhile IMO, so if you’re not feeling it- I’d get out now before digging a bigger hole.

I like that, if you cant turn it into an "irrational love affair" then walk away...quickly!

My first cruising boat was an aging vessel from the charter fleet where I worked part-time as a captain/instructor. It was a great sailing boat and I got paid to sail her often, but she was in bad need of lots of maintenance. Nothing structural/major, but damn near everything else needed to be repaired/replaced (and I knew it). One day I made the owner a half joking low ball offer...and he accepted! Crap!

My work aboard this vessel as a charter captain was sort of the courtship period, damn I loved to sail this boat! The purchase was the commitment. I proceeded to spend stoopid amounts of time and money working on her. Fortunately, I had a good professional day job to fund this irrational love affair. In the end I spent about double her market value in renovations and upgrades. And, I still count those expenses as one of the best "investments" I've ever made. Damn, we had a lot of great times on that old boat.

When it came time to sell her (because my late wife wanted to upgrade), I was depressed for weeks. My wife would tease me about getting rid of my mistress. I still miss her...

Rohan · 16-06-2022, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by psk125

According to the OP, paying for the survey and heeding the information in it would have saved him $14,500

Assuming the OP is telling us the full story, that survey doesn't even come close to describing the condition the boat was actually in.

Quote:

Sounds like a good ROI on $500 to me. Surveyors don't run engines or hoist sails. That's what a sea trial is for.

A sea trial is also part of the survey, or at least it was with mine. Even if they can't do a sea trial, how much effort does it take just to turn the key and see if the engine starts??

belizesailor · 16-06-2022, 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by albertjizhang

No contract signed for the survey, nothing. Only one phone call when he told me in broken English that the price for survey is 500 euro

Then you have nothing to base your claim upon. Its not a police matter anyway, just a civil dispute (I assume that's the same in Italy). No one is going to jail.

belizesailor · 16-06-2022, 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohan

Assuming the OP is telling us the full story, that survey doesn't even come close to describing the condition the boat was actually in.

A sea trial is also part of the survey, or at least it was with mine. Even if they can't do a sea trial, how much effort does it take just to turn the key and see if the engine starts??

In general, it is very common for the sea trial to be separate from the survey. Usually the survey happens first and then if the deal moves forward a sea trial is scheduled. But, there is no rule that says it must be done that way.

goboatingnow · 16-06-2022, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohan

Assuming the OP is telling us the full story, that survey doesn't even come close to describing the condition the boat was actually in.

A sea trial is also part of the survey, or at least it was with mine. Even if they can't do a sea trial, how much effort does it take just to turn the key and see if the engine starts??

Sea trials in Europe are typically separate and in fact usually don't involve a surveyor.

clakiep · 16-06-2022, 15:19

Sorry, I don't know where You live to stay around and repair everything yourself or at least under Your dayly supervision. Otherwise it sounds like a good chance for a walk away and lesson learned.

I once bought a used cat in Trinidad/Tobago, and went trough the whole standard procedure for curiosity: broker, refundable downpayment, survey etc...The surveyor was a nice guy, I actually helped him bringing him something to drink while crawling through the hulls this very hot day. But he found nothing I woudn't have found out myself, even in the short seatrial. So for me the main advantage of a survey is that you have a written argument to discuss a price reduction with the seller.

Capt. Claus - ocean tramp of the eighties