Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

[zeehag]

neighbor has one of these--it is a sailboat with an engine. try sailing it. you might like it.

[TrentePieds]

Why would it be too big? I've taught lubbers on 14 foot Enterprise dinghies and in a 65 foot ketch, and on a great many things in between. The basics of BOAT HANDLING are the same regardless of length. What differs is the way the crew responds to the HUGE difference in mass (displacement) twixt big boats and little boats.

This difference in mass manifests itself in the time it takes for the boat to do what you tell it to do. Sometimes in a big boat it feels as if you are standing there, tapping your foot, glancing at your watch and going "Come ON, now - get on with it!". In a little boat you tell it to do the same ting and it feels like "Oh, wow - that was quick!"

By the same token, if the little boat decides to do something other than what you want it to do, you know it immediately. The big boat is rather less communicative, and if it decides of its own volition to do something you don't want it to do, it takes longer for the crew to clue in. It also takes longer for the crew to get the boat to stop whatever it is it's doing.

A 38 is nicely "in the middle". Best of both worlds. At 38 feet we are in the realm of wheel steering. That is something we must tolerate for a number of (good) reasons, but we mustn't be blind to the fact that it rather interferes with the communication twixt boat and helmsman. The practical effect of that is that rather than react instinctively to what the boat is telling you by the tactile feed-back through the tiller, you have to "interpret" what the boat is doing by observing the visual (and aural) clues. That takes time. So now we have a boat that is slow to tell you things and your own self that is slow to interpret what the boat is telling you.

As a practical matter, all that means is that you have to give yourself plenty of time, and plenty of searoom, to correct any mistakes/problems that arise from miscommunication twixt the boat and your self.

Just go slow, practice, practice, practice the standard evolutions in your new boat until they no longer require conscious thought, let alone analysis. No different from "working in" with any other mate :-)

Too big in term of the budget is another thing altogether and only you can answer that. As for the purchase price you might like to know that is these waters few boats sell for more than 60% of listing price, so that seems like a good benchmark for your first offer. The seller is free to turn that down, but the broker is not. The broker MUST present every offer made to the seller for his acceptance or refusal. If the seller turns down your offer, you are free to make a new and higher offer if you really want the boat.


Have fun

TrentePieds

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff

I'm looking at this Roberts 38 with view to possibly making an offer on it.
It's a 1978 build
Solid fiberglass Hull & deck
appointed well with just about all equipment & electronic etc to go cruising
Survey done Nov 2015 says hull in good condition, though some osmosis
present both sides of lower part of keel, should this be of great concern?
Mast needs repainting & SS rigging due to be replaced
I must add I'm a newbie to sailing and concerned it may be too large
for me to handle and singlehand being a beginner, though would be living
aboard and don't want to live on a real small boat, prefer abit of space
Owner is asking $AU65,000 as is,.. 75K with new rigging installed.
Not sure if that's a fair price with it being the age it is. any feedback would be appreciated.

Since Roberts catered to the home builders, you may want too consider if it was a backyard construction or reputable yard. Not saying a backyard job is bad but getting insurance could be problematical.

[reed1v]

That is a lot of money for an old kit boat. Home built boats are real iffy. The asking price is about 8 times what it should be. For that price you can buy a really nice hans christian 38 and will have no problem selling it when you want to move to something else.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by reed1v

That is a lot of money for an old kit boat. Home built boats are real iffy. The asking price is about 8 times what it should be. For that price you can buy a really nice hans christian 38 and will have no problem selling it when you want to move to something else.

I had to go back and find the price. It may well be worth it but as you pointed out if it is not for a life time probably not? Resale would be the problem.

[GILow]

As usual non Australians are a bit shocked by the price of things here in Oz. The asking price is a little high but not out of the ballpark for an Aussie boat, particularly if the boat is fitted with reasonably new electronics, winches, sails etc. That being said I would suggest that about two thirds of the asking price is usually what the vendor will accept in my limited experience.

It looks like a really nice boat to me and a few here who know about them are giving a positive response to the design. However the unknowns of a home built boat are a problem, both in ownership and resale and that should be considered in the final offering price.

More importantly, here in Oz the cost of keeping the boat at either a pen or mooring can be a real bugger depending on where you live. Have you checked to see what you are going to have to pay?

Finally, you say you are new to sailing. TP is correct in saying you can learn on any size boat but I personally believe starting out in a reasonably large boat like this has a few downsides. Aside from the larger financial risk if you discover you don't like sailing as much as you thought you would, any mistakes you make in either handling or maintenance are going to be more costly too.

(And I do believe starting sailing in a smaller boat, like a dinghy, makes you a better sailor as you are more attuned to what is going on with the boat but that's a minor niggle and I have no real evidence to support this assertion.)

Anyway, I could think of plenty of worse first boats... I've owned some of them.

Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[JPA Cate]

BoxertwinJeff,

Hi, friends of ours circumnavigated in a Roberts 38 they built. It did not have a pilothouse. Both with and without the pilothouse, they are sail boats.

Motorsailers generally have short rigs for the length of the boat, and their general appearance is less svelte.

Ann

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff

I'm looking at this Roberts 38 with view to possibly making an offer on it.
It's a 1978 build
Solid fiberglass Hull & deck
appointed well with just about all equipment & electronic etc to go cruising
Survey done Nov 2015 says hull in good condition, though some osmosis
present both sides of lower part of keel, should this be of great concern?
Mast needs repainting & SS rigging due to be replaced
I must add I'm a newbie to sailing and concerned it may be too large
for me to handle and singlehand being a beginner, though would be living
aboard and don't want to live on a real small boat, prefer abit of space
Owner is asking $AU65,000 as is,.. 75K with new rigging installed.
Not sure if that's a fair price with it being the age it is. any feedback would be appreciated.

Boxertwinjeff,

The boat's almost 40 yrs. old. That is an asking price. I think it's quite high. While shopping for this boat, we found many boats asking about twice what they were worth.

I think you should enquire the cost of properly addressing the osmosis issue, and deduct that from your offer, if that's what you decide.

Now, as to the pilothouse... As you are in Cairns, a hot, humid area, make sure the whole boat is really well ventilated. Something else, can you sail it from aft of the pilot house? How is the visibility? Must you pilot it from the pilot house? If so, how are you going to check your sail trim? What is the access to the winches?

Good luck with it.

Ann

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by reed1v

That is a lot of money for an old kit boat. Home built boats are real iffy. The asking price is about 8 times what it should be. For that price you can buy a really nice hans christian 38 and will have no problem selling it when you want to move to something else.

I've seen a lot of home built boats. In the vast majority of cases, the actual construction is far better than most production boats. Finishes may not be as nice, but the way the boat is put together - the stuff you don't readily see, is usually done very well. Bulkheads are usually properly glassed in both sides, not just tabbed or glued in, wiring and plumbing is usually accessible, not hidden under full moulded liners, stuff like that.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I've seen a lot of home built boats. In the vast majority of cases, the actual construction is far better than most production boats. Finishes may not be as nice, but the way the boat is put together - the stuff you don't readily see, is usually done very well. Bulkheads are usually properly glassed in both sides, not just tabbed or glued in, wiring and plumbing is usually accessible, not hidden under full moulded liners, stuff like that.

Tagging bulkhead is a cheap no brainer.

[TrentePieds]

Quoting GILow, #51:

"(And I do believe starting sailing in a smaller boat, like a dinghy, makes you a better sailor as you are more attuned to what is going on with the boat but that's a minor niggle and I have no real evidence to support this assertion.)"

You may not have evidence, but I will support you in your contention :-) It is certainly my observation that people learn better, faster in smaller boats. It has to do with something I said earlier today, maybe on another thread: A small boat's feedback on what you tell it to do is quick and unconfusing. It is understood instinctively. Feedback can be slow and require analytical thought in a big boat, and the bigger the boat, the more that is the case.

A major reason for that is that small boats are tiller-steered. Once you are au fait with small boats' responses to the helm you can transist to wheel-steering with far less uncertainty and confusion.

IMO a wheel has no place in a sailboat until the boat is so large that it would be taxing to steer it without the mechanical advantage that a wheel affords.

[Boxertwinjeff]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Boxertwinjeff,

The boat's almost 40 yrs. old. That is an asking price. I think it's quite high. While shopping for this boat, we found many boats asking about twice what they were worth.

I think you should enquire the cost of properly addressing the osmosis issue, and deduct that from your offer, if that's what you decide.

Now, as to the pilothouse... As you are in Cairns, a hot, humid area, make sure the whole boat is really well ventilated. Something else, can you sail it from aft of the pilot house? How is the visibility? Must you pilot it from the pilot house? If so, how are you going to check your sail trim? What is the access to the winches?

Good luck with it.

Ann

Thanks for all your replys so far!....Ann, photos on first page,...it also has a Steering wheel in the Cockpit, appears some lines run back to the Cockpit, visibility should be
Ok from Cockpit,....must say the Osmosis issue concerns me, rust is why I'm avoiding Steel, does Osmosis run like Cancer and raise its head anywhere on the hull etc even after being properly treated, like is it going to be on ongoing exercise to keep it under control once its discovered in a fiberglass boat?

[GILow]

Osmosis is a very variable thing. Some fibreglass boats will never hatch a single pimple, others will develop massive blisters of incredible size. I've seen a boat at our club that had blisters a foot in diameter.

The point is that the level of osmosis is really the issue. There are some greet threads on osmosis here on CF that discuss the issue in great detail. Worth searching them out. It may be that the level of osmosis you are seeing is nothing but a minor cosmetic niggle or it may be the start of some insanely expensive repairs.

If the boat has already had some significant treatment for osmosis I would say it is statistically likely at it will have further problems, sooner rather than later. Whether this is because of the quality of the repairs or the nature of the problem itself I do not know, but the majority of experiences I have read or talked to people about when dealing with osmosis resulted in the problem reappearing in a frustratingly short period after the work was done. But then maybe people who have the work done and have no further problems don't think to mention the issue.


Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Paul J. Nolan]

A rough rule of thumb: if she has a pilot house (or center cockpit, or huge engine with a three-bladed prop, or, God forbid, two engines) she's a motorsailer. Not absolute; Tom Colvin put a pilot house on a thoroughbred sailing boat, but, sadly, you will encounter very few Tom Colvins in a lifetime.

Paul

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

A rough rule of thumb: if she has a pilot house (or center cockpit, or huge engine with a three-bladed prop, or, God forbid, two engines) she's a motorsailer. Not absolute; Tom Colvin put a pilot house on a thoroughbred sailing boat, but, sadly, you will encounter very few Tom Colvins in a lifetime.

Paul

No, that's not a good rule, that's a stupid rule.

We have a centre cockpit, a three bladed prop and 96HP engine. We even have a deckhouse which is not dissimilar to pilot house.

And we are a sailing boat, not a motor-sailor.

I just LOVE dumb generalisations.