Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

[Liam Wald]

Originally Posted by zeehag

resin, hell--my ballast is cement, with whatever was in yard. works well and boat is solid. handles well in huge winds and big seas. designed for trade winds cruising, and does exactly what it was designed to do , and the reputations are due to those who mostly have yet to sail one even once.
the rumor about batteries in the ballast is wrong...batteries had too much value to put into ballast.
this is what makes reputations exist--rumors...rodlmao--
try it, you may like it. comfortable cruising AND can tolerate huge winds... go figger... amazing what the old style designs were designed to actually go and do.
having sweet lines isnt only an aesthetic advantage--helps in facing seas.....

Yes, I had also seen boats that used bags of cement. My guess is that if anyone ever drilled into that cement they might find a few other things like hunks of steel, rocks, bricks, etc. (mostly stuff that has weight and cost less than bags of cement).
Like you said, "They are all different."

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

Well that changes everything!
(picture me on my knees bowing in submission while endlessly chanting "I am weak, you are strong".

Like I said, if you guys all want to get together and agree that a lightly ballasted boat with very little wetted surface is better in heavy weather than a heavier boat with narrower beam and higher bal/disp ratio with a higher angle of vanishing stability that's nice, but it's wrong.

Now head on out to the lake and get behind the "steering wheel" and go drive your boat around for a while.

[Liam Wald]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Like I said, if you guys all want to get together and agree that a lightly ballasted boat with very little wetted surface is better in heavy weather than a heavier boat with narrower beam and higher bal/disp ratio with a higher angle of vanishing stability that's nice, but it's wrong.

Now head on out to the lake and get behind the "steering wheel" and go drive your boat around for a while.

I am guessing that in real life you are probably a really nice guy and just act this way on the internet.
But then again, maybe not.

[zeehag]

what the builders used as ballast is irrelevant. it is heavy and it works.
my boat is dry in big seas and tolerates huge wind very nicely and comfortably. she does exactly that which she was designed to do.
with comfort for all aboard.

AND we make it to anchorages without exhaustion. isnt difficult to sail these, even sola.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

I am guessing that in real life you are probably a really nice guy and just act this way on the internet.
But then again, maybe not.

I am a nice guy, and I'm guessing so are you. This stuff starts out as a quest for knowledge and brain exercise etc, but some folks get upset if they appear to be wrong or do not get their way and then it escalates into a battle.

You actually have a right to attack me somewhat since I did single out your boat in particular. Btw, I like most ALL sailboats especially the fast ones. (but) I think it's interesting to learn what affects what on these boats.

Some guys though simply refuse to learn anything and would rather just get mad and start attacking the individual that disagrees with him..........

This is the next boat I plan to consider buying. I need another boat which will be the polar opposite of my Bristol. Although, this boat does have a bal/disp ratio around 47%, it's rather lightly built at 10,800 lb displacement and being 34' long. The PHRF on this boat is 117, and it has tiller steering. It's a Peterson 34. The draft is 6.25'.

http://richmond.craigslist.org/boa/3939884038.html

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Well Dave, you have hit the nail on the head. I have said for years half the sails out on the water think they are driving a car!

It's not just like cars. First, the rudder doesn't have total control like your steering wheel. Second, a boat travels over a different surface on different days. If there is bad weather you cannot just pull over at the nearest restaurant, etc

Come on! You know he didn't mean a boat was like a car but that like cars, technology can improve safety at higher speeds and lower weights. Talk about a straw-man!

Did you actually say lower wetted area is better? I know you didn't mean that if so you have lost it totally. A small racing catamaran has very little wetted surface and in bad weather it has almost zero defense against bad weather. If you really believe that lower wetted surface is better there is no need to argue because you wil never understand.

Lower wetted surface means less friction which means faster speed. But it also means better immersion curves which means more carrying capacity. Most of these modern boats we are talking about have pounds per inch of immersion numbers close to 2,000 pounds and generally in the neighborhood of 500 or more pounds better than the traditional designs. That means they can carry two drogues, a sea-anchor, gale sail, tri sail and rodes and additional control lines for these safety items, along with 4-7 anchors with rodes, big ss backing plates on cleats and still make better speed than the big, old heavy cruiser. This could mean getting into port before the storm and riding it out safely at anchor. If the goal is safety, you have to remember that there are several ways to achieve a safe passage. Just because someone makes different safety choices from you or from what was considered traditional choices doesn't mean they don't consider safety to be important.

If you want to talk extremes leave the silly beach cat analogies at home, let's compare to the Volvo Ocean Race carbon fiber rocket ships. These boats have very low B/D ratios, low wetted surface, are capable of high speeds and sail through some of the worst conditions this planet has to offer.

And if you are not willing to accept that material science and computer aided design has improved our understanding of what makes a seaworthy boat there is "no need to argue because you wil never understand".

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Simply put heavier boats ( ...) will stand up to bad weather much better and recover from a worse knockdown than your average fin keel/spade rudder boat (...)

Far fetched. True for some designs, not true for others.

You will notice, but only if you look, that

a) many older designs were characterized by shallower keels and less ballast (heavier canoe body, heavier boat but lower % of ballast),

b) more ballast, deeper IS NOT what lessens the chances of a bad knockdown, as most bad knock down are dynamic (think roll inertia) events.

b) contradicts a), in lay mind.

Dig deep(er).

b.

[SailPenelope]

Zee Hag is actually out there doing it........not sure how many of the rest of us can say that......I know I can't.......

And I also have a "Leaky Teaky" (CT41 ketch) and I love it. Just feels right. Don't mind caring for her.......caring begets love.......

To each his own. Depends on where you're sailing, what you're doing. I think that a lot of boats in the past were sold to people dreaming of cruising......it may well be that modern boats are a better fit for what people are actually doing.

[boatman61]

Well... being of the "I don't build em.. I just sail em" brigade... here's my take...
They're all uncomfortable in a blow... just some are more so.. and in different places... and funny enough the biggest boat I've delivered was the least comfortable... not one decent sea berth.
When folk talk about not taking boats like Hunters and Bene's or Catalina's across Oceans I figure either they've never sailed them or.. don't know how to sail them.. like every boat... its a 50/50 chance you'll get across..
Do it in unfriendly sea's and seasons and the odds change for both types... and scale for either is dependant on the crews skills more than the builds..
If I could choose 1 out of all the various boats I've owned/delivered as my near perfect boat it would be a Westerly Longbow 31, long fin and skeg.. solo... with occasional guest..

[Liam Wald]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I am a nice guy, and I'm guessing so are you. This stuff starts out as a quest for knowledge and brain exercise etc, but some folks get upset if they appear to be wrong or do not get their way and then it escalates into a battle.

You actually have a right to attack me somewhat since I did single out your boat in particular. Btw, I like most ALL sailboats especially the fast ones. (but) I think it's interesting to learn what affects what on these boats.

Some guys though simply refuse to learn anything and would rather just get mad and start attacking the individual that disagrees with him..........

This is the next boat I plan to consider buying. I need another boat which will be the polar opposite of my Bristol. Although, this boat does have a bal/disp ratio around 47%, it's rather lightly built at 10,800 lb displacement and being 34' long. The PHRF on this boat is 117, and it has tiller steering. It's a Peterson 34. The draft is 6.25'.

Peterson 34' Sloop

Well yes, you did attack my boat and I did became offended because I really do like my boat.
I will be the first to admit that it isn't a perfect boat or the "last word" in boat design, but it works for me.
I do not intend to sail around the world. I am a coastal cruiser.
I have sailed this boat over 12k miles and regularly find myself 20-50 miles off the west coast in the Pacific Ocean. I am rarely off the coast for more than 2-3 days so I am not to worried about "getting caught" out there.
I sail mostly solo so a 33 foot boat is plenty big enough for me.
I chose this to be my last boat based upon 40+ years of sailing and owning boats. 10 of those years as a Yacht Broker sailing hundreds of different boats.
I am not trying to make myself sound smarter than I am. I am just saying that there are many reasons why people choose to buy the boats they do and whatever works for them is just fine.
Very few sailors are dying out in the water because they are in boats that are dangerous or poorly constructed.
Having said all that I will finish by saying that I personally prefer modern designs, aesthetics, and construction techniques over those of years past.
Happy sailing.

[Liam Wald]

Thomm,

PS; Isn't that Peterson 34 pretty much exactly what you have been railing against?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

Thomm,

PS; Isn't that Peterson 34 pretty much exactly what you have been railing against?

Ah..........yes! (arguing is brain exercise to me plus you learn stuff)

I told you I like fast boats. I also like the old full keel boats, but I want something that will actually do something when it gets hit by a gust.

What I mean by that is I want the boat to shoot forward when the wind hits it say when sailing upwind rather than just heel over.

I went thru this with my catamarans. My old Hobie 16s would just pop up out of the water and fly the hull whereas the NACRAs would shoot forward if everything was trimmed correctly on a good lifting gust. NACRAS have long daggerboards; Hobie 16s do not. NACRAS have blunt bows and sterns; Hobie 16s have rocker)

I have almost been taken of the back of those boats when a gust hit due to the boats acceleration, and I was trapped out and holding the tiller and mainsheet (and maybe the mast rotator and downhaul lines as well). So it wasn't like I was unsupported. The boats were/are that efficient. And of course the newer lighter F16 Vipers are even more so.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

Thomm,

PS; Isn't that Peterson 34 pretty much exactly what you have been railing against?

Actually, it is probably worse than what he has been railing about. A '79 Peterson is much closer to an IOR design and the designs that showed real issues in the famous Fastnet race disaster, than a modern, fast cruiser. Pinched rear ends, low initial stability -- not much like a more modern design.

[zeehag]

penelope--the 51 formosa and 47 vagabond are the only 2 boats i would ever dream of stepping up into..mebbe force 50--i know they were designed for tradewind sailing, and i know they do exactly that for which they were designed--and they do it in comfort, even in wallowing. err, following and quartering seas...but i am so happy with mine i do not wish to have to see inside the bigger ones to drool so much...

didnt knock down or come anywhere close to that situation even with a 60 kt chubasco hitting us on beam north of cabo san lucas--we DID achieve 8.4 kts boat speed in my brick of a tank....was a gas!

omg it was a miracle...rodlmao--NOT!!!! lordy lord i shoulda died..again--NOT..

i love this boat. i dont have to return anywhere in big winds or seas....

how do those modern boats hold up--i know about bendy from markj.. others please let me know how they handle in heavy stuff..i am curious to see what , if anything i am missing by having a boat with sexy lines and split rig that is actually a comfy cruiser.....

i have been a guest in modern boats in anchorages for dinner--awesome comfy at anchor....rooomy inside---easy access to board...shiny....but, how do they handle weather and sailing in wallowing seas.....are you comfy at end of passage or exhausted... do you have to work much or can you become easily bored and need to fish for dinner and read or find ocean life to observe in order to pass day....does autopilot have to work hard or is it easy tracking .... leaky teaky mineds want to KNOW.....is your boat dry in seas or do you ship seas over bow???

i have cruised bayfield 36 cutter and seidelmann 37. old style, i know...i must be stuck in minedset wherein boats look sweet not boxy....

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Actually, it is probably worse than what he has been railing about. A '79 Peterson is much closer to an IOR design and the designs that showed real issues in the famous Fastnet race disaster, than a modern, fast cruiser. Pinched rear ends, low initial stability -- not much like a more modern design.

Looks like Paul L has been doing his reading...............

I like the 117 PHRF, the 6.25' keel (won't be good in the Chesaoeake though) the baby stays etc. The boat does have a bal/disp ratio of 47% so it should pop back up from a hard knockdown, but I don't know how much hardware will still be left standing.

I want to learn these boats. I'm hearing the boat has a solid fiberglass hull but that composites were used in the construction. I'm also hearing they are tough boats.

I plan on battling heavy weather with good communication. In other words, I'll run from it or not go out.