Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Please, can we leave the personal attacks out of this?

Here: I've got an "expensive" boat. I often pay people to do work on the boat that I would rather not do, or don't have the time to do myself, or when I feel that my own skills aren't up to the task.

Is my opinion automatically biased and therefore worthy of ridicule?

I've also been sailing since I was six years old, and have put over 25,000 sea-miles on my current boat. I've been aboard boats where the hull was so flexible that you couldn't keep the standing rigging tensioned. I've had friends sail on boats where you couldn't get the interior doors to open or shut when heeling beyond 20 degrees. I've had friends tell me about turning back for home when the bow sections started oil-canning and interior bulkheads came adrift in heavy weather.

I also have friends who have put 10,000+ miles on their Beneteaus and Hunters. Most of these boats are pretty tough. Some aren't.

I'm one of the people who has been saying that most boats will take you where you want to go, but don't try to tell me that the only difference in boats is the cost of the curtains.

Ahhh.... but I bet its not a Jongert... what is it... mid range Oyster or something..
Don't believe ya......

[neilpride]

Pacific seacraft 44....

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Pacific seacraft 44....

Now that is a real real sailboat..

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

Now that is a real real sailboat..

Yes it is, one of the top line... Here is a pic of Paul Elliot boat doing well reefed down....Some people dont understand the benefit of a canoe stern in the design, i realize time ago that a canoe stern in following seas is great, Bermuda to Azores 1995 s/v Angantyr ...

[barnakiel]

We too have canoe stern here (well nearly, we have a spitsgat stern - rudder behind the boat) and I think it sucks. Narrow ends make a boat roll downwind. Narrow stern exposes aft cockpit to more pooping - the stern lifts less, and later, than in a flat stern boat.

Would I buy into the same layout again? Probably. Aesthetics, easy access to rudder (not in canoe stern though!), etc. A feature like any other, with some cons and some pros.

Canoe stern is grossly overrated. Possibly by people who have canoe sterns. See Oyster rant above.

b.

[neilpride]

Well i could agree with you Barni, my experience with a canoe stern boat come from a custom design and construction, never be in a production canoe stern design like a Valiant or any other design, all i can say is in Angantyr the pronunced canoe stern work very well in big following seas, i remember see the crests working their way around the stern , we mitigate the rock and roll working with the 2 centerboards and setting the jib and staysail in 2 poles.. but i recognize the boa roll to much in some conditions.....

[K_V_B]

I again am wondering how different a thread like this would ave been if we were on a French forum...

Among French sailors there's really nob discussion. In France "blue water" is spelled "OVNI", or "RM" or Allures, Garcia...

The debate wether wide, wedge shaped hulls with modern appendages are seaworthy is essentially over this see of the pond. Details like stowage, lay out, yes they matter. That's why a four cabin, two heads Bavaria 38 s not ideal for going RTW. However a RM 1260? Right away.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Yes it is, one of the top line... Here is a pic of Paul Elliot boat doing well reefed down....Some people dont understand the benefit of a canoe stern in the design, i realize time ago that a canoe stern in following seas is great, Bermuda to Azores 1995 s/v Angantyr ...

I don't see what the benefit is, indeed. And most yacht designers will tell you the the only reason for canoe sterns is that some people like them.

[boatman61]

There is a reason for canoe sterns... look at the area's and sea's where they're popular... big sea's and winds and that's what experience says works best.. why dya think shore launched lifeboats through the ages have had canoe sterns... will ride a wave truer than that fat ass waving around...
not popular with designers because it cuts down space aft that can fit twin cabins so a lot harder to sell..

[transmitterdan]

Canoe sterns are not inherently safer or better than another properly designed sterns. Freeboard matters of course. I think Bob Perry said the Valiant stern was a marketing decision. But he designed it correctly so the boat is well behaved on all points of sail. Too bad he is banned from CF else he might be able to offer some wisdom.

[neilpride]

Bob Perry baned ?? why?

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Canoe sterns are not inherently safer or better than another properly designed sterns. Freeboard matters of course. I think Bob Perry said the Valiant stern was a marketing decision. But he designed it correctly so the boat is well behaved on all points of sail. Too bad he is banned from CF else he might be able to offer some wisdom.

Just love looking at all those Volvo 50 racers and their canoe sterns...

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by neilpride

(...)

I find your image well worth repeating!

Seaworthy/fast/practical? Perhaps. Pretty? DEFINITELY!

Beauty is a necessity. We must be in love with her. Otherwise, why build/buy?

Modern, classic, and everywhere in between.

b.

[Paul Elliott]

I personally think the canoe stern performs well enough, and has some advantages when it comes to keeping the boat balanced when it's heeling, but the supposed "following seas benefit" is overrated. I've had no problems with being pooped, and we have plenty of reserve buoyancy back there, but the canoe stern does reduce waterline length and significantly reduces the usable space in the stern area. The canoe stern and narrow beam do help keep the lines symmetrical under heel, and helps keep the rudder submerged. There's a reason that wide-stern boats often have dual rudders.

For me, the main advantage of the canoe stern is that I like how it looks on my boat. On some other boats it would look silly, but I really like the lines on my boat. That's one of the reasons I bought it.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by savoir

Doug Peterson's boats were notorious in the 70s for steerage problems. They bring a whole new meaning to rock n roll. At least those boats help you keep your spreaders well washed. The problems will start in any breeze above 10. the first sign is a big load on the helm while reaching.

Get something by Farr. If all you want to do is go fast then maybe the Santa Cruz 33.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1542&url=

Well I called my surveyor and asked him about the boat. If he had heard of them etc. He said he had and that they were built strong for a racing boat. I was like how strong? He said ......much better than a Catalina or Hunter."

So I went over but this boat hadn't been taken care of. I did get to see a beautiful Beneteau Oceanis 41 though. (with short wing keel) I can tell you right here and now that it will be a fine boat on most lakes and bays.

I'm back to heavy. Seems like everything I look at just will not compare to my old '74 Bristol 27. I know where a Westsail 32 is maybe that or the Islander 36.

I'm just leery of the keel on the Islander that I'm looking at. It has the Shoal draft 4'9' keel. I saw one of those today too and it looked really good.