Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-05-2021, 05:18   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Mother Russia
Boat: TBD
Posts: 22
Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Hello everyone!


I am looking at Bavaria 32 and have found cracks and some delamination of the middle frame.
Is here anyone with boat building education, who can tell me how much critical can this be for the boat integrity?


The boat was obviously grounded.
But the keel attachment looks strong.
The question is only about the middle frame.


Pictures below.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1.jpg
Views:	453
Size:	341.2 KB
ID:	238482   Click image for larger version

Name:	e.jpg
Views:	396
Size:	246.4 KB
ID:	238484  

Click image for larger version

Name:	f.JPG
Views:	519
Size:	80.6 KB
ID:	238485  
gray_sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 05:34   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 440
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

You do not mention it, but the joint between the keel and the hull sure looks "rough." Without a closeup it is impossible to be sure, but it looks to me like there is extra sealant applied to the outside of the joint. Whenever I see that I know an amateur has tried to stop a leak.

Myself, I'd find another boat...
BillKny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 05:39   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Southport CT
Boat: J/36
Posts: 1,777
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

"The keel attachment is strong." Great. That's like saying the handle is firmly connected to your screen door, but the last guy who used it tore the top hinge off. The crack indicates that the keel has leveraged the hull to such an extent that it has broken. There are likely similar cracks at the other end. The keel hitting something has pulled the forward end of it down and the aft end of it up. Where the keel attaches to the bottom of the boat may look fine, but essentially, the bottom of the boat has started getting ripped open by the keel. It can be fixed, but it has to be done right, and may not be an easy or cheap fix.
psk125 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 05:59   #4
Registered User
 
LittleWing77's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,865
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Ask Manateeman or JimBunyard (both professional boatbuilders) to weigh in with a second opinion, but psk125 is right-on.

As well as BillKny says - find another boat.

+1
LittleWing77
LittleWing77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 06:10   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Kennebunk ME
Boat: Owner built 60í Aluminum Expedition Yacht.
Posts: 843
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Since this is not your boat, I strongly suggest you do a lot of research and pay for an independent survey because fin keel repairs can become very expensive.
Please also check the professional qualifications and yacht building experience of those who post advice or opinions.
Two good sources of information. 1. Bavariayacht.org. 2. Boat design.net
Bavaria yachts are well engineered. There are numerous owners who have posted issues with their keels. Please review these.
I have never visited their plant nor have I seen the construction drawings, but I have built vessels with similar keels. Iím not a big fan of this type of construction.
What I find interesting in reading over posts from other Bavaria owners is two things. Bavaria uses wood as a structural element and you find a crack in a wood component. I began building wood boats and properly engineered, wood is fine as a structural element. Next, Bavaria uses a thickened epoxy rather than a polyurethane between keel and hull. Pulling a keel off a hull is no simple matter but Bavaria owners have done this and it is expensive .
If you are committed to purchasing this vessel, please take your time to get an accurate cost. Anything can be fixed, but even the finest boatbuilders will tell you the complexity of some repairs are very difficult to see until things are taken apart. Simply dropping the keel partially, can pull pieces of the hull off. Lastly, do not take any shortcuts with wood structural elements. Wood / epoxy construction with clean dry surfaces yields far greater strength than wood joints exposed to contamination from salts or oils.
Have you an opinion from the builders?
Happy trails to you.
The manatee crew.
Manateeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 06:11   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Mother Russia
Boat: TBD
Posts: 22
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleWing77 View Post
Ask Manateeman or JimBunyard (both professional boatbuilders) to weigh in with a second opinion, but psk125 is right-on.

As well as BillKny says - find another boat.

+1
LittleWing77
I lean towards the same opinion.
But I need someone with boat building background to give an opinion.
I wrote an email to Bavaria yesterday, but they will answer on Monday the earliest.


I wrote to Manateeman. Hopefully he will advise.
Thanks!!!
gray_sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 06:17   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Mother Russia
Boat: TBD
Posts: 22
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manateeman View Post
Since this is not your boat, I strongly suggest you do a lot of research and pay for an independent survey because fin keel repairs can become very expensive.
Please also check the professional qualifications and yacht building experience of those who post advice or opinions.
Two good sources of information. 1. Bavariayacht.org. 2. Boat design.net
Bavaria yachts are well engineered. There are numerous owners who have posted issues with their keels. Please review these.
I have never visited their plant nor have I seen the construction drawings, but I have built vessels with similar keels. Iím not a big fan of this type of construction.
What I find interesting in reading over posts from other Bavaria owners is two things. Bavaria uses wood as a structural element and you find a crack in a wood component. I began building wood boats and properly engineered, wood is fine as a structural element. Next, Bavaria uses a thickened epoxy rather than a polyurethane between keel and hull. Pulling a keel off a hull is no simple matter but Bavaria owners have done this and it is expensive .
If you are committed to purchasing this vessel, please take your time to get an accurate cost. Anything can be fixed, but even the finest boatbuilders will tell you the complexity of some repairs are very difficult to see until things are taken apart. Simply dropping the keel partially, can pull pieces of the hull off. Lastly, do not take any shortcuts with wood structural elements. Wood / epoxy construction with clean dry surfaces yields far greater strength than wood joints exposed to contamination from salts or oils.
Have you an opinion from the builders?
Happy trails to you.
The manatee crew.

Mataneeman, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
gray_sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 06:33   #8
Registered User
 
LittleWing77's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,865
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manateeman View Post
Please also check the professional qualifications and yacht building experience of those who post advice or opinions.
Once again, Manateeman provides an excellent and thorough response, but just can't resist slagging/ implied-slagging of fellow Forum Members, which, I'm sorry, Mark, just drives me bananas.

Okay, so BillKny is a relatively new Member, but from his comments, he has a sharp eye. He is right. It IS a red flag when you see thickened sealant, which can indicate an amateur repair. It can also indicate a badly executed "professional" repair. Does it matter which? No.

What DOES matter is why would one keep making a boat fit one's checklist when indicators are that there has been a hard grounding and perhaps catastrophic and expensive repair? I'm sure Gray would prefer to go sailing.

As for psk125, he's far too modest to toot his own horn, but suffice to say he is a VERY high-level and seasoned racing skipper and multiple-boat owner. For years. He knows whereof he speaks.

Okay, that's my rant for today.
LittleWing77
LittleWing77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 06:39   #9
Registered User
 
Spot's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Minnesota, USA
Boat: 21' trailer sailor & 8' sailing dinghy
Posts: 1,051
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Link from another sailing website.

First part of this video is a narrated tour through a Bavaria factory.
The second part is a little 'artsy' concerning bigger boats/ships.

__________________
Big dreams, small boats...
Spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 07:52   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Kennebunk ME
Boat: Owner built 60í Aluminum Expedition Yacht.
Posts: 843
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

I sincerely apologize to all members.
It was snarky, ill-mannered and Iíve been guilty of it before.
I will reread my posts before posting.
I do appreciate all the replies to my posts and for everyone taking the time to post. Everyone has the perfect right to comment.
There is no excuse for my bad manners and I can only wish the sincerity of the apology will be accepted as being true.
Mark and his much humbled crew.
Manateeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 11:08   #11
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: St Croix, heading to South Seas
Boat: Hunter 37 Cheribini
Posts: 193
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Don't WALK away....RUN Away!!

Apollo Wayne
Apollo366 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 11:12   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: argyle, nova scotia
Boat: 30 feet sailboat, 1991
Posts: 117
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

if those are the keel bolts I can tell you the washers are too small
peter loveridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 16:23   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Port adelaide south australia
Boat: Cheoy lee perry 48
Posts: 192
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Inspect the lower lending edge of the lead keel for new or old damage plus the washers under the keel bolts are way to small ,could be much more damage if fully surveyed, red flag .⚓️⛵️
Searles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 18:24   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Im swimming in the Atlantic Ocean right now.
Boat: Approx 25 ft of blubber and muscle with big fins / natural selection- current state of evolution
Posts: 127
pirate Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manateeman View Post
I sincerely apologize to all members.
It was snarky, ill-mannered and Iíve been guilty of it before.
I will reread my posts before posting.
I do appreciate all the replies to my posts and for everyone taking the time to post. Everyone has the perfect right to comment.
There is no excuse for my bad manners and I can only wish the sincerity of the apology will be accepted as being true.
Mark and his much humbled crew.
you got to remember to password lock your computer when you go to the jon. your drunkard manatee crew was at it on the keyboard when you were away....manatees and booze is a bad combo.
BAD ORCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2021, 18:25   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: Westerly Conway 36ft
Posts: 670
Re: Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

Hi Grey Sailor. Well spotted. Reality is that you can have no idea of the extent of the damage to the boat without ripping it apart. To be honest I am curious as to why you are even asking questions here. Are there not that many boats for sale in Russia?

Walk away. Find another boat.
Clivevon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cal

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Backstay to Bimini frame frame concern. MollyJo Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 19 20-10-2016 11:38
critical decision before criticizing decision slowpoker Atlantic & the Caribbean 23 29-12-2011 07:35
Force Anchor Swivel - Critical Failure Charon Anchoring & Mooring 5 19-11-2011 14:18
Critical Dimensions for Cruising SPARK General Sailing Forum 4 11-06-2011 13:30
The Critical Mass tardog General Sailing Forum 18 23-03-2009 19:06

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.