Middle frame cracks. How much critical?

[BAD ORCA]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Hi Grey Sailor. Well spotted. Reality is that you can have no idea of the extent of the damage to the boat without ripping it apart. To be honest I am curious as to why you are even asking questions here. Are there not that many boats for sale in Russia?

Walk away. Find another boat.

Individual level of experience with boats is very wide ranging on CF. What seems obvious to some might be uncertain to others. Experience is not instant its cumulative.

[Hesti]

Further cracks can be seen ahead of the keel bolts. On the right side, there are tell tales from water beside the keel bolts. Could be condensation but could also have been keel bolt leakages and would fit in nicely with the perceived external sealing of the keel hull joint. There also seem to be two different colored sealants visible around the washers - white and black. Last point: Might have been like that from the factory, but when securing two different thickness nuts against each other, normally the thin nut goes below and the thick nut goes at the end of the thread. Which all together suggests some work may have been done on the boat to stop water ingress resulting from a collision.


But what remains is, that parts of the hull and frames have been stretched beyond design limits, resulting in visible cracks and delamination. That has not been repaired yet and it can be a very big job with boats that have glued in stiffener webs. Basically, a lot of internal furniture must be removed before you can properly inspect for the full extend of damage and start to plan the repairs. In addition, on the outside, all underwater paint would have to be removed around the keel to be able to check for cracks from that side.

[gray_sailor]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

To be honest I am curious as to why you are even asking questions here. Are there not that many boats for sale in Russia?

Walk away. Find another boat.

Ok, folks, you have cracked me.
I must disclose, that I am recently graduated yacht surveyor at the start of my career.
Just got my Diploma examination and now doing first real survey.
It seems to me that my client will walk away from this boat.
But to do it nice, he must be able to to withdraw his deposit from the seller.
What I see, is a sign of a serious structural damage and very big red flag.
But I can not look inside of the laminate to confirm what I think.
Those tiny cracks may look very minor cosmetic damage to the seller and he may refuse to return deposit to my client.
That is my challenge at the moment. I must provide survey report which can be used as a solid justification of deposit return to my client.

[svtrio]

Looking closely at the top section of the photo, the brown/red surface coating might have separated from the surface below it: Adhesion failure?

The coating bears a strong resemblance to West System and one of its fillers.

Yes, I see the tiny crack lines lower in the photo thanks to a previous set of sharp [emoji102]. If my observation is accurate, then they could be cosmetic.

I’d like to know what’s under the coating (and confirmation of its type) and why was it applied.

Grinding/sanding the questionable sections would likely resolve the question if there are cracks in the hull.

In any event, this doesn’t seem to be a professional “repair.”

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by svtrio

The coating bears a strong resemblance to West System and one of its fillers.

That's standard Bavaria flowcoat colour for bilges.

Gray Sailor, since you can't see inside the laminate then you can only report that on inspection, there appears to be damage probably caused by a hard grounding. This requires further intrusive investigation to establish the severity.

BTW it should be "signs" given the dent in the keel too.

The sealant around the keel join may be a "red herring". Sealant doesn't really stick and regularly needs cleaning out and re-applying. I do ours every couple of years.

Pete

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by gray_sailor

Ok, folks, you have cracked me.
I must disclose, that I am recently graduated yacht surveyor at the start of my career.
Just got my Diploma examination and now doing first real survey.
It seems to me that my client will walk away from this boat.
But to do it nice, he must be able to to withdraw his deposit from the seller.
What I see, is a sign of a serious structural damage and very big red flag.
But I can not look inside of the laminate to confirm what I think.
Those tiny cracks may look very minor cosmetic damage to the seller and he may refuse to return deposit to my client.
That is my challenge at the moment. I must provide survey report which can be used as a solid justification of deposit return to my client.

Your client seems to have signed a poorly written sales contract.

Every boat contract I have been involved with was written with language that the purchase was contingent on a satisfactory survey and sea trial, and it is up to the BUYER to decide what "satisfactory" is.

With the "standard" American yacht purchase agreement it is almost impossible for an honest seller to keep a deposit within the terms of the contract in a case like this.

If the seller did not disclose UP FRONT that the boat had suffered a hard grounding, AND pointed out all the damage that you identified, the buyer SHOULD have all the justification he needs to walk away whole.

All you have to do is write what you see, and point out that it is impossible to be sure that all damage is visible. Everything else is up to the buyer.

[gray_sailor]

Originally Posted by BillKny

Your client seems to have signed a poorly written sales contract.

In fact, there is no sales contract at all.
He just got pictures from the broker and was pushed to pay deposit "before this amazing offer has gone to someone else".
I understand him. This boat looks really nice on pictures and her price is well below market.

They were going to arrive here with wife and dog, take here all their stuff and start to live aboard right after my survey. This is what was planned.
We were discussing that I should make only "to-do list" for future boat maintenance.
Now it all has changed.
He tries to sign "agreement of sale" (preliminary contract).
I urge him to include those wordings you've mentioned above.
Even now I am being pressed by the broker to stop delaying the sale by senseless checks of this truly wonderful boat, before it was sold to someone more willing.

To make it more spicy, broker already transferred money to the current boat owner, which definitely violates rules of brokerage.
So, my client seeks local lawyer help.
It is a pity to see how someone dreams are being crushed and frightening to be a part of this story as my first real survey..

We will see how it will end...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by gray_sailor

her price is well below market..

Now why might that be

[nortonscove]

Chances are that if you are fixated on this boat it is because you believe you are getting more for your money. I will tell you that you are probably getting far less than you can get elsewhere.

If a deal seems too good to be true it probably is. That old adage is timeless.

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by gray_sailor

In fact, there is no sales contract at all.

Oh, no...

Originally Posted by gray_sailor

He just got pictures from the broker and was pushed to pay deposit "before this amazing offer has gone to someone else".
I understand him. This boat looks really nice on pictures and her price is well below market.

It would seem the broker is just flat-out a lying crook. No honest broker would EVER take money without a clear written contract.

Originally Posted by gray_sailor

Even now I am being pressed by the broker to stop delaying the sale by senseless checks of this truly wonderful boat, before it was sold to someone more willing.

Do not be bullied. Do your job, as best you can. That's all you can do.

This is a very tough spot. If the situation is exactly as you describe, this broker needs to be held accountable. What might be hard for you: THAT is not your job. No matter how much empathy you have for the buyers, your job is to report on the boat's condition. You can not solve the problem the broker has created.

Hopefully, throwing a real lawyer into the mix will straighten this jerk out.

[vic008]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

Chances are that if you are fixated on this boat it is because you believe you are getting more for your money. I will tell you that you are probably getting far less than you can get elsewhere.

If a deal seems too good to be true it probably is. That old adage is timeless.

Good idea to read the original post. Nowhere does he say buying for himself!

[Bill_Giles]

We had similar damage to our matrix structure after a grounding. £15,000 to repair. Just imagine, support hull, remove mast, remove keel only then know the extent of the damage. Run a mile.

[double u]

...seeing as this specimen is the only one of those precious Bav 32, a rare & highly priced breed, for sale, I would quickly grab her, no matter for how much. She will occupy your thought for a long time to come...
how can the price have been "below market"? - Marketprize for this boat is €1.- (if!)

[more]

Originally Posted by gray_sailor

Hello everyone!


I am looking at Bavaria 32 and have found cracks and some delamination of the middle frame.
Is here anyone with boat building education, who can tell me how much critical can this be for the boat integrity?


The boat was obviously grounded.
But the keel attachment looks strong.
The question is only about the middle frame.


Pictures below.

you must use an Endoscope Camera for the Inspecting grid. all grid is possible to inspect with pro-quality Endoscope Camera for pipe with light .
Most critical place after ground is a grid betven engine and keel but is close to bolt 30-40 cm.

Removing keel is pain in ass. job from 1 day to multi days.

But you hypothetical removed keel
sand blast keel
on top keel where is bolt inspect bolt if corrosion (not surface,real SS corrosion,crack) exchange keel bolt

on top keel protect area with paper.
original keel primer is 3. Lacke & Farben : KIM-TEC Zinkstaubfarbe
paint keel with this zinc paint
top keel primer is PLEXUS PC-120 you have now only 30 minute for return keel or must applied PLEXUS PC-120 again
use Plexsus MA310 to MAxxx depend how thick you need.
hull is thick from 2-4 cm
but is more easy reed here in the instruction manual for this job.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bH9...ew?usp=sharing