Long keel 28/32 ft?

[Talbot]

Couple of quick observations:

Jeff - adding your picture of synergy to every post can make download times for 56k modems or GPRS a real pain. Its a nice picture, but repeats get boring.

The original poster of this thread was talking about purchase in USA and taking bake to Europe (Italy IIRC) - There are big problems about import of yachts into EC that need to be recognised as they may well become major cost drivers.

You will have to pay VAT. You will also have to make sure that the boat is fitted out with CE certified equipment and there is another inspection process that needs to be completed as well (RCD if I recall correctly) - You might getaway with your own use, but boat would not be re-sellable in Europe

[capt lar]

eugenia - hope the Shipman 50 is handicapped accessable cause i'll be in a wheelchair before i can afford one when it is 25 year old used. capt. lar

[Jeff H]

Talbot:

Thanks for the heads up on the size of the picture of 'Synergy'. I placed the link in the 'Signature' block on the profile page with the intent that it show up in that box to the left of each post (in the same manner that your power boat pic shows up) but have not been able to make that happen. I had hoped that it would help new members coming to the board get a sense that my viewpoint was coming at things from a slightly different direction than more traditional cruisers. I had not realized that it was that large a file. To all with slower connections, I am very sorry.

Back to the thread, my last post only listed EU built boats and was meant in response to Capt Lar's question rather then the question that started this thread.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[capt lar]

talbot - i think remo was saying 20k US just to let us know his budget. he was looking for names to run on search engine. it would seem to me that the US might be the hardest place to find a steal and nothing near 20k that is ready for transatlantic no matter how large your stones. capt. lar

[O25]

The question of what constitutes a full keel and how CCA designs perform has come up many, many times. I owned a 1967 Bristol 27 until about two years ago, and followed the debate on Sailnet with interest. Just as here, it usually consisted of owners of these boats sparring with Jeff H.

Jeff argues that, by no definition that he knows of, could these be considered full-keel boats. I disagree and would be interested to see the source of his definition related to the keel being 50% of LOD. In his book on small boat design, Ted Brewer shows an illustration of a CCA-type design and calls it a "modified full keel." I don't recall how he defines that term but the graphic is very clear. I consider Ted Brewer to be a fairly authoritative reference. Note that this isn't an attack on Jeff (who seems extremely knowledgeable) or anyone else; I just disagree with the characterization of these boats as fin keels with attached rudders.

Definitions aside, what bothers me is that we seem to have arrived at the conclusion that you can't buy a seaworthy boat for under $20K. That is simply untrue. Several CCA designs can be had for well under that number, and if properly prepared, are very seaworthy. MANY Tritons, A30s, A35s, A37s, etc., etc., have safely circumnavigated....the facts speak for themselves and their is a 40+ year history of these boats going the distance. They may not have been the fastest, their motion may not have been the most comfortable, their accommodations may not have been the most spacious, etc. But they can certainly get the job done, and at a very reasonable price.

As for me, I sold my B27 because it was poorly suited for the type of sailing I do most - club racing in a light air venue. I never found the motion uncomfortable, the performance was OK if there was wind, the cabin was fine, and she was beautiful to look at. I can also tell you that she was reasonably well built with no significant structural issues. All in all, nothing to complain about, particularly for the $4500 I paid for her. I now have an Olson 25, by the way.

[capt lar]

i don't have a dog in the fight over terminology of keel configuration. we all seem to agree for the most part on the strengths and weaknesses of each.
the original question was how to find a bluewater boat for 20k total budget. i agree there are plenty of boats that could be purchased for 20k and made ready for bluewater. as Jeff noted, the cost would probably exceed resale value, and it would be a better decision to buy more boat, finance as needed, and hold value.
of course if you only have 20k and just gotta go - we understand and hope for good weather.
capt. lar

[Jeff H]

More to the point there are under 20K, non-CCA boats like Folkboats, H-28's, Tartan 27's. Allied Seawinds, that are better suited for offshore work than the CCA boats. They still need a lot of work.

Jeff

[Dman]

Ok I think I will make a comment about making a stronger more durable hull by using less material.The strength issue I can see.Brace anything in more strategic areas and you can make it stronger and lighter.The egg/cardhouse for example however making it thinner has to make it less impact resistant.The older layups were resin thick and thus not as strong,but how much strength was lost?And how much more durable is something that is twice as thin when it is scraping along a rock.An F1 racing car is as strong as hell made out of the most advanced material on this planet,but if I back into it with my 30 year old car it is junk and I am driving off to the grocery store.

[GordMay]

Nice analogy, Dman!
"... An F1 racing car is as strong as hell made out of the most advanced material on this planet,but if I back into it with my 30 year old car it is junk and I am driving off to the grocery store.
Which illuminates the difficulties encountered in discussing “strength”. There is no (one) “flavour” of strength, that would describe all the desirable features of a 'strong', durable boat hull.

So, what is “strong” ?
Strength of Materials - A Few Properties:
Compression (by Axis)
Tension (by Axis)
Shear (by Axis)
Flexure (Static Bending Modulus & Impact Bending)
Elasticity
Rupture Tenacity
Hardness / Abrasion
Fatigue
And the Architects/Engineers would probably tell me it's not quite that simple ...

[BC Mike]

There is always a problem when comparing apples to oranges. But staying with boats. The rig and related gear does not have to be as strong on a Thistle as a 25 foot cruiser type, which does not have to be as strong as a 36 foot cruiser type. As long as the hull and rig and gear is strong anough for the boat you have the problem is basically solved. What constitutes strong enough will keep forums like this going for many years. Some cruiser types seem to shun anything that would improve sailing performance. Such as folding props, sensible foil shapes, smooth bottoms, less windage aloft and so on. If an 8000 pound hull is sufficient then 9000 pounds must be better, the hull will settle lower and the righting moment should be better, or so the logic seems to go. Why not stay at 8000 pounds and have the extra capacity for stores?
Michael

[Dman]

I would have no problem if they charged by the pound when paying for a boat.