Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

[hpeer]

YES, yes, yes... a six year old thread. But there is a lot of good info in the above thread.

Attached is a pic of our boat, a true cutter. The mast is not quite at station 4 ( 40% of waterline back) but close and we have an 5’ bow sprit. As you can see the staysail is on a boom a quite far back from the foremost stay so tacking is not much of an issue. Think of her as a 44’ boat with a 49’ sail plan.

In particular the fore stays are on a less steep angle than on almost any other even moderately modern boat. It’s visible in the picture but is more extreme than it appears because the photo was taken on an angle, making the fire stay appear steeper than it is.

Our early experience with the boat was in more northerly latitudes. The very heavy (~110) Genoa worked well only on a limited wind range. So I bought a larger Genoa. It was good for mid latitudes, like the Chesapeake and where I did not do a lot of upwind work.

Now going to the Caribbean I switched back to the smaller heavy Yankee. But it’s not working well, can’t point for beans and it is creating excessive weather helm.
I don’t know if this is because the sail is poorly cut or because of the shallow angle on the forestry. In any case it’s a problem. And it’s taking me far too long to sort this out because I can be a dope at times.

The other day I recalled I had this rather small and light headsail stowed away from when we bought the boat, I haven’t looked at it in 10 years, I dug it out.

Its a 90% non overlapping, the luff is about 8’ short, I added an 8’ pendant so the profits would work right, but the tack is still a good 15’ off the deck. A rather odd looking sail. Then I got the BRIGHT IDEA. My stays are at the toe rail, attached to the hull. As it is non an over lapping sail why not sheet it INSIDE the stays. So I rigged it and took her out for a spin.

Not a great day 15knots with sustained gusts to 25knots, the wind and wide howled at the same time so it was a short trip with limited experience. But I have some observations. I was sailing with one reef in the main, full staysail, and fooling with the Genoa. I was also experimenting with an unrelated mainsail modification.

I get a good boost out of the sail on a broad reach and weather helm appears to be less of an issue. I need more experience to see just how much this is really true. The boat POINTS far better with this arrangement, this itself is a huge improvement and would have made our Thorny Path trip much easier. The sheets rub a bit on the forward baby stay, I may or may not be able to do something about that.

My gut impression is that by shifting to this much smaller sail it complements the rather large staysail better and it’s like having a different boat upwind. So it appears to be a good sail for Caribbean sailing......15k to 25k out of the East with a lot of upwind work. Back north I’ll be switching again for light winds.

I’ll be talking to my sailmaker when I get to Grenada to get more input and see how all of this comes together. Maybe my Yankee needs to be recut? Maybe I need a sail kinda like this one but a bit different? Maybe it’s just wonderful.

[slug]

Originally Posted by pete33458

Hi all: been searching for a new boat for a while now. I've been considering a cutter because I am frequently single-handed, and found the prospect of easy furling of a smaller headsail to be appealing. However, as I've been looking at boats I notice that virtually all of the cutters I've seen have large genoas, 125%, 130%, even 140%. I understand that large genoas improve performance in light wind and upwind. However, if a large genoa is so important for performance that most owners simply choose to forgo use of a jib or yankee entirely, it kind of defeats the purpose of looking at a cutter. So I thought I would seek input from cutter owners and experienced cutter sailors (which I am not). How much difference does it really make, given the downside of much larger foresails to deal with single-handed? I understand that every boat is different, etc, etc, I'm just looking for generalities here.

Thanks as always for your input. Best, Pete

Big overlapping Genoa’s are a liability offshore

Chafe on mast, spreaders, radar and they are difficult to tack

A well designed cutter is non or shy overlapping

Light air power and reaching are taken care of with the Code sail

[hpeer]

Slug,

Very nice boat. Very different from our boat. Both cutters.

You must be close to 60’ with no sprit.

[Nicholson58]

Yes, forgot this six year old thread. We are now live aboard in the Caribbean. The Salty Dawgs transit in 2016 took us 7.5 days Hampton to Virgin Gorda, 1500 miles. We had back to back 250+ mile days using only mizzen and cutter.

I can recommend now in our fourth year here that extra heavy, small sails are the rule and a must. Typical passages between islands in the Windwards and Leewards is 20-30 with seas around 6-9 feet. All of the light weight inventory could have stayed in Michigan. We only rolled out the 130 yankee #1 about four times each season. The code zero, twice in three years, AS kite only once. So,I say upsize you’re cutter staysail weight. It should be indestructible.

Our slot is very large. Adding in a bit of the #1 adds a lot of power in the 14 to 24 apparent conditions. Because the slot is large, the partial combination works well to weather. We reduce the main to reduce weather helm.

Occasionally we get lucky. Transit from Antigua to Guadeloupe two weeks ago we used both jibs on a close reach at 8-9 knots. We could have posted much greater speed but, now that we live here, the cost and ability of repairs precludes risk.

ROXY. Currently in Dominica WI. Martinique on Sunday. Say hello it you see us.

[hpeer]

Nickelson,

Thanks for that. We are a couple of weeks behind you but may meet you in Dominique if you stay long enough. Where do you hole up for hurricane season?

The “new” sail I put up is light weight, but it’s been in the bag since we bought the boat. Its a throw away if things don’t work out.

The analysis of our sails comes about because I’m experimenting with various autopilot configurations. Having a steel boat makes things interesting. So I’ve got a PyPilot driving a CPT, but with too much weather helm. I’ve been working on my sail trim skills and have the main working better which made the problem with the Yankee more obvious. Plugging along under 1st reef main and Staysail, I roll out some Yankee and pick up good speed but also a lot of weather helm.

So I dug out this weird sail and figured out how to sheet it INSIDE the shrouds. I’ve never seen anyone else do this so I’m feeling a bit “exposed” bringing it up. Of course it’s done with staysails and I presume those small headsails, spades or something. I’m curious if anyone else trying this with a Genoa and staysail.

But I’m also interested in why my heavy Yankee is giving so much weather helm. Is this normal? Doe it relate to my shallow stay angle? Oh the questions!

My gut is that the combination of the two sails will work well. Here’s hoping.

I think I’ll poke up to Falmouth tomorrow and the over to Guadeloupe in a few days. That should give me a better sense of things.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by slug

Big overlapping Genoa’s are a liability offshore

Chafe on mast, spreaders, radar and they are difficult to tack

A well designed cutter is non or shy overlapping

Light air power and reaching are taken care of with the Code sail

That is what I have learned the hard way, excepting I really don’t have any issue tacking or chafing. However I did lose some pointing going from a 110 Genoa to a 135. Chafing because you control that, just don’t sheet it in that tight, accept it’s not going to windward as well as the 110. Mine will chafe on the spreader, Radar is on a pole.
My theory was to go with the lager sail for downwind and gain light wind performance.
However the heavier cloth really doesn’t lend itself well to light wind use in any kind of sea.
Now that I have a Code Zero, I have no use for the 135, I may research getting it cut down to a 110 as in truth when there isn’t enough wind for the 110, it’s time for the Code Zero.

Some things you just have to learn.

[roverhi]

On our Westsail 32, pre roller furling, we mostly sailed with a Yankee and loose footed Staysail and a reefed main in the tradewinds common for most cruising routes. We also had a reacher/drifter that we used in light air and moderate reaching conditions. That was an adequate sail inventory for us in those ancient times. We tried an overlapping staysail which really helped in light air but the sheet fouled the shrouds as it was eased so it got left home. For mostly coastal/daysailing conditions would have loved to have had at least a 135% genoa for going to weather in light conditions We so seldom had those conditions in the cruising we did that the wouldn't want to give up the storage space for the bagged sail, though..

Today, I'd go with a furling 100% foam luff jib, as large a loose footed staysail as would fit, and a code zero for light air. If I wanted to make the effort to change the jib and had storage for it, would go with a 135% genoa for beating in light conditions.

[hpeer]

A64,

Our boat is more like the IP 38, except with a longer sprit.

Did you have any weather helm issues?

Did you ever consider trying to sheet a smaller headsail inside the shrouds to point better?

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Nickelson,

Thanks for that. We are a couple of weeks behind you but may meet you in Dominique if you stay long enough. Where do you hole up for hurricane season?

The “new” sail I put up is light weight, but it’s been in the bag since we bought the boat. Its a throw away if things don’t work out.

The analysis of our sails comes about because I’m experimenting with various autopilot configurations. Having a steel boat makes things interesting. So I’ve got a PyPilot driving a CPT, but with too much weather helm. I’ve been working on my sail trim skills and have the main working better which made the problem with the Yankee more obvious. Plugging along under 1st reef main and Staysail, I roll out some Yankee and pick up good speed but also a lot of weather helm.

So I dug out this weird sail and figured out how to sheet it INSIDE the shrouds. I’ve never seen anyone else do this so I’m feeling a bit “exposed” bringing it up. Of course it’s done with staysails and I presume those small headsails, spades or something. I’m curious if anyone else trying this with a Genoa and staysail.

But I’m also interested in why my heavy Yankee is giving so much weather helm. Is this normal? Doe it relate to my shallow stay angle? Oh the questions!

My gut is that the combination of the two sails will work well. Here’s hoping.

I think I’ll poke up to Falmouth tomorrow and the over to Guadeloupe in a few days. That should give me a better sense of things.

You won’t have much use for light sails in the Caribbean. Big sails for off wind need to be stout. Easterly trades tend to be 20 knots true or more. This is not racing. Keep it safe.

I use our staysail with or without the Genoa. The two together are great in any wind point but to weather the Genoa is done at 18 apparent or above. This is all boat dependent of course. Most of us motor sail to weather especially with high sea states. If you have a sail made to sheet inside this will greatly add to your pointing ability. Our slot size is big. Most smaller boats have a more narrow slot. The large slot allows the boat to double head close hauled. Otherwise, the staysail fights the Genoa until you are reaching.

We will be departing Saturday or Sunday for Martinique and then back to Dominica 14 to 21 March for a week with guests. Then off to Antigua where we meet our daughter and grandchildren for a week 27 to 31 March. We will likely be in deep bay just north of Jolly Harbor. After that we work south to Trinidad by June for hurricane season. Find us at Power Boat in Chaguaramos, Trinidad. Trinidad is a great place with good community in the yards. Lots of tours, good biking.

[hpeer]

We will likely cross paths in Dominique. I will look for you.

For the balance of this season I need to work with what I have and use the experience to figure out what to do next. I need to do better with the weather helm.

[Jim Cate]

For the balance of this season I need to work with what I have and use the experience to figure out what to do next. I need to do better with the weather helm.

It is unusual to increase weather helm when adding foresail area. Some hulls generate wx helm from big heel angles... could greater heeling from the bigger sail be your cause?

Jim

[hpeer]

Jim,

I’m thinking along those lines myself.

Running out the Yankee, not much (say 30%) and the boat powers up but also takes a big heel.

From my (very bouncy) preliminary run with the much smaller sail Sheeted inside the shrouds it did not heel as much but still powered up.

(Conditions were 15 knots about broad reach, 3’-4’ irregular chop - main and stay alone ~4 knots, 6k with 30% Genoa but too much weather helm for the autopilot. But remember we are 44’ and 40,000lb. One hell of a motion comfort ratio!)

So my thought is that the Yankee is not shaped well and is contributing too much to the heel for the power I’m getting.

Either that or I just suck at sailing! That’s a high possibility.

[hpeer]

To add, something my Wife just pointed out, because the weird sail doesn’t go to the top of the curling, there is an approx. 8’ pendant on top, that it’s center of force is that much lower than on the Yankee, so I’m still getting the forward effort but less over turning effort.

Sorry if I am rambling incoherently but writing it out helps me to process what is going on.

Many thanks to all for your patience.

[Greg K]

Sadly, many sailors these days do not know what a cutter is nor how to sail one. True cutters are fairly rare, and when I do see one it is more often than not being sailed as a sloop with a largish low-cut genoa. It's shame because even in these days of furlers and electric winches, cutters are still one of the best options for short handed sailing, especially offshore.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Sadly, many sailors these days do not know what a cutter is nor how to sail one. True cutters are fairly rare, and when I do see one it is more often than not being sailed as a sloop with a largish low-cut genoa. It's shame because even in these days of furlers and electric winches, cutters are still one of the best options for short handed sailing, especially offshore.

Even the sailmakers are confused

When I ask for a high cut ...:yankee type limited overlap Genoa.... they stumble

I end up drawing them a little picture

Important to have your headsail high cut

They are versatile

Poled out sails do not like to have long leaches

The entire system becomes overloaded and floppy when the leach is long

To overcome the reduced sail area of the high cut you fly the staysail undernesth

A cutter