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Old 03-02-2023, 15:11   #61
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Check out how little the wind vane moves the tiller here to stay on course.


It is important to trim the boat out on course using sails, reefing and sheet trim to achieve near-neutral balance. Should a very small degree of weather helm be wanted, that should be achieved by holding the tiller in the right position using cordage - and bungees adjusted as wanted - which is exactly what Karen is using in the video.

The Hydrovane then needs to do very little corrective steering. It is wholly independent of the primary rudder and tiller assembly.

"Being independent, there are no lines connected to the main steering, so set up and operation are simple."


Every steering input creates drag. Cumulative avoidable 'drag penalties' result in slower average speed and lower distances run.

So, the closer one can trim the boat and its required steering input to 'perfectly minimum' the faster one goes, and the higher daily averages achieved.
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Old 03-02-2023, 15:23   #62
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
It depends on the conditions. Her boat doesn't have a compromised rudder position as a result of the full keel (being that the rudder is transom hung), but some boats do. In general, a full keel will have more of a natural tendency to go straight. But that also means it takes more force to make it turn. So if you're getting pushed around and yawing in a following sea, it may be harder for any steering system to keep the boat straight (as more force will be required to pivot the boat back to straight).
With the right sail setup though it's much easier.

My boat is full (cutaway) keel.

Here are those videos many have seen that show proper sail setup and improper.

And no I'm not in the ocean but it would be similar unless the seas were really confused.

Winds in the video are around 28-29 knots in the first one and 30 knots plus in the second even though the winds were down from earlier. Second video is wind against extreme tide also

Main halyard is also fouled in the first video which helped me with sail selection as I couldn't raise the main which was good. Jib furler in also jammed

In second video due to wrong sail setup boat continually tries to round up and I couldn't go forward to lower the main. Autopilot couldn't deal with that much mainsail being up. I only have one set up reef points on that main.

Forecast was for 22 knots in second video. I'm just about across the lower bay in second video. Many miles to go in first.

Boat is really being driven hard also in second video and I was just glad the wind didn't increase passed 32 knots or so. Wave were huge at the shipping channels where the depth or so different



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Old 03-02-2023, 15:38   #63
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

It's a hydrovane auxiliary rudder.
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Old 03-02-2023, 15:43   #64
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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It's a hydrovane auxiliary rudder.
Yeah it's nice but checking the prices they don't give them away so I guess I'll be staying with electric.

https://hydrovane.com/prices/

I'm on my third tiller pilot now after only 11 years sailing/cruising locally.

If/when this one fails I may bite the bullet and go with the Raymarine EV-100 which can be had for around $1500

It's a lot stronger that their standard tiller pilot

https://www.raymarine.com/en-us/our-...0-tiller-pilot
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Old 03-02-2023, 18:02   #65
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

More a response and explanation for rhe limited tiller movement. The hydrovane is theoretically completely independent of the main rudder. Perhaps this boat had some type of sheet to tiller assist also of some kind or a modification off the hydrovane.
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Old 03-02-2023, 18:02   #66
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

Pelagic is the TP to get.
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Old 03-02-2023, 21:40   #67
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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Well she must have been in a favorable tide quite a bit then because she has been at that speed numerous times and as high as 8.4 knots.

8.4 knots is the highest I have found so far but I may have missed a higher one someplace.

(You can back up the tracker to check speed at various spots on the course)

Kirsten Neuschafer South Africa
Cape George 36 - 53

Speed: 8.4 knots @ 123.35
Owner: Minnehaha
Position at: 20 Nov 2022 14:43 UTC
Lat/Lon: 39 23.54 S, 035 18.12 E
DTF: 8478.4 NM

Abhilash Tomy India
Rustler 36 - 71

Speed: 8.0 knots @ 106.70
Owner: Bayanat
Position at: 23 Nov 2022 17:25 UTC
Lat/Lon: 39 56.50 S, 044 35.56 E
DTF: 8710.1 NM

Kirsten Neuschafer South Africa
Cape George 36 - 53

Speed: 8.0 knots @ 93.54
Owner: Minnehaha
Position at: 05 Dec 2022 23:41 UTC
Lat/Lon: 42 56.69 S, 084 53.43 E
DTF: 8478.4 NM
Note that back in Nov/Dec they were still in the tail of the Agulhas current, which could bump them up by 2-3 knots, intermittently. The "speed" reported by their trackers is an average from distance travelled in the 4 hours between pings from the YB3, so if it so happens that most of that 4 hour period was sailed with a favourable current, these values are actually less surprising than the latest ones they've had.
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Old 03-02-2023, 22:36   #68
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

I think perhaps the Hydro is acting alone, without any additional line(s) that connect it to the tiller.
Sure, the tiller moves around a bit.
As the boat moves around the shape of the immersed volume changes and the flow rate and pressure gradients are changing.
The use of a shock cord and a tie-off makes a nice trim tab that can have some bias in it and still give a little, it can "dump" some adverse pressure, reducing drag.
Its small movements show her skill in balancing the boat/sails.
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Old 03-02-2023, 22:44   #69
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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I think perhaps the Hydro is acting alone, without any additional line(s) that connect it to the tiller.
Sure, the tiller moves around a bit.
As the boat moves around the shape of the immersed volume changes and the flow rate and pressure gradients are changing.
The use of a shock cord and a tie-off makes a nice trim tab that can have some bias in it and still give a little, it can "dump" some adverse pressure, reducing drag.
Its small movements show her skill in balancing the boat/sails.
Correct...the Hydrovane is totally independent of the main rudder. I don't have a hydrovan but I do have a trim tab on aux rudder. Helm is lashed - normally with a few degrees of weather helm. There will always be a bit of slack in the lashings on the tiller - which can be seen in the vid made fast to stanchions P & S .

To get a windvane to work well the boat must be well balanced and relying on headsail drive - you don't want the main trying to drive her up to windward in a puff.
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Old 04-02-2023, 04:27   #70
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
Pelagic is the TP to get.
Thanks.

Forgot about that one.
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Old 04-02-2023, 05:42   #71
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

Am I reading this right? As of Feb 4th there are only 4 left in the race with more than 8k nm to go?
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Old 04-02-2023, 06:08   #72
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

A quick look on the site shows 4 still racing plus 3 in the Chichester class.

I just had a thought for an interesting future variant of this race: instead of limiting the tech, limit the budget. So something like "you need this safety gear, that's budget exempt. Boat needs to meet these guidelines and you can't spend more than X dollars total on the boat, equipment, etc."

I think that could make for a rather interesting race, as you could have modern tech, but you'd have to pick and choose what's worth the cost. And it's a test of resourcefulness to get the boat and have it ready to compete in a limited budget.
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Old 04-02-2023, 06:36   #73
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post

I do like that wind vane pilot
That wind vane pilot look flimsy and may be is.


https://hydrovane.com/

https://ariesvanegear.com/about-aries/

https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/347621664996727235/

https://www.yachtingworld.com/extrao...suhaili-105226

https://www.yachtingworld.com/all-la...repairs-140831

https://windpilot.com/blog/en/golden...apio-lehtinen/

https://windpilot.com/blog/en/column...hard-heise-nz/
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Old 04-02-2023, 07:10   #74
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

I like the wind vane pilots because they are old school, but at a cost of $4,000 and up when this Raymarine ST2000 Tiller Pilot I have now fails I'll go with something like a Pelagic Tiller Pilot since I'm now on my third standard tiller pilot.

The Pelagic Tiller Pilot that would work on my boat goes for around $950

https://pelagicautopilot.com/collect...iller-actuator
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Old 04-02-2023, 07:35   #75
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Re: Kirsten Neuschafer Cape George 36 @ 7.9 knots

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
I like the wind vane pilots because they are old school, but at a cost of $4,000 and up when this Raymarine ST2000 Tiller Pilot I have now fails I'll go with something like a Pelagic Tiller Pilot since I'm now on my third standard tiller pilot.

The Pelagic Tiller Pilot that would work on my boat goes for around $950

https://pelagicautopilot.com/collect...iller-actuator

Probably a good choice. Realistically, if you have the power to run an electrically driven autopilot and you're not sailing in situations where redundancy for self-steering is critical, you can get along just fine without the wind vane. Singlehanding across oceans, especially with limited electrical power, is a bit of a different situation.
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