Ketch Rig . . . Why ?

[Dockhead]

If anyone wants to drool over Beowulf, here are a bunch more photos:

DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website

Pure boat porn.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If anyone wants to drool over Beowulf, here are a bunch more photos:

DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website

Pure boat porn.

It's nice enough on the inside, but the hull looks like cr*p. Is it a sort of reverse snobbery where the owner has so much money that he can afford to have a boat that looks like its worth tuppence?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

It's nice enough on the inside, but the hull looks like cr*p. Is it a sort of reverse snobbery where the owner has so much money that he can afford to have a boat that looks like its worth tuppence?

Matter of taste. I LOVE it. The raw aluminum is rough and functional. Low (zero) maintenance. Ready to go anywhere.

My own boat is more conventional polished and waxed white gelcoat and teak decks. Do I like the way it looks? Yes! But I'd trade for Beowulf any day.

[IdoraKeeper]

Good--Looks cool and balences nicely. Gives me more stuff to fuss with and makes adjustments easier.
Bad- More stuff to maintain and break. Won't point like a sloop.

I own one and flat out love the boat...in fact today I am going to go down and have a spring love fest at the dock. She has invaded my dreams lately and it's time to get ready to go.

Todd

[Greatketch33]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

Good--Looks cool and balences nicely. Gives me more stuff to fuss with and makes adjustments easier.
Bad- More stuff to maintain and break. Won't point like a sloop.

I own one and flat out love the boat...in fact today I am going to go down and have a spring love fest at the dock. She has invaded my dreams lately and it's time to get ready to go.

Todd

Oh, I understand the bad.. One of the reasons why I have a cat ketch with free standing masts. Very simple to work.

When a buddy of mine sailed with me, he was at the helm when called a tack; he did so and commented "oh that was too easy," -- upon the completion of the tack.

[s/v Jedi]

Search Youtube for more...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfjVa7hIj0o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4zg5vD_jvI

cheers,
Nick.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Matter of taste. I LOVE it.

Evidently

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The raw aluminum is rough and functional. Low (zero) maintenance. Ready to go anywhere.

All good points and it costs less to finish off in production if you don't waste time painting it. Weighs less too....

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My own boat is more conventional polished and waxed white gelcoat and teak decks. Do I like the way it looks? Yes! But I'd trade for Beowulf any day.

Don't do that - just toss your current boat over here and I'll take it off your hands free of charge .....

I had looked at a couple of ketches and I wasn't sure about the extra mast and sails. They were Colvic boats which seem to have been designed for UK waters - fibreglass, twin keels, roomy inside and ketch rigged but they are all at least 15 years old and would need a considerable "freshening" up inside as long as the hull and bulkheads are OK. They were also a touch short being 33ft when I'm really looking for 36ft.

[CruisingKitty]

I sail a cutter rigged Bowman 57 ketch and I agree with all of the above. She is beautiful under sail, easy to handle, offers a myriad of sail combinations, and exquisitely balanced. On three Atlantic crossings, we sailed through 6 gales across the north atlantic under jib and jigger most of the way, sailed through the Azores high under asymmetrical spinnaker and mizzen staysail, and sailed between the Bermuda and Azores highs the third time under a variety of configurations that kept us comfortable and moving fast the entire way. We can furl and unfurl the yankee on demand without going forward, and we can put up a smidgen of mizzen at anchor. When we lost our steering mid-ocean, we kept sailing downwind balancing the sails with ease until we could fix the problem (24 hours). We have hove to comfortably on mizzen and staysail for 36 hours at a time in 40 plus knot winds with no effort.

And yes, I do love a schooner, but on a schooner the sails tend to be more equal in size. And no, our main mast is no shorter - we cannot make it down the ICW but wouldn't want to anyway.

[CruisingKitty]

Here's a link to a blog post on why we love our ketch. Aside from the fact that she's beautiful under full sail.

https://aleriasadventures.blogspot.i...ketch-rig.html

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by bob perry

And if you really want me to be censored again just bring up Eric Sponberg.
Make a list of the great Eric Sponberg boats and get back to me. It should not take too long.

I know it's an old post on a rekindled thread, but this comment was music to my ears! I've always been concerned about designers who spoke so much about the performance advantages of certain rigs and yet year after year after year somehow managed to avoid creating a top performer in any class.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Chris 249

I know it's an old post on a rekindled thread, but this comment was music to my ears! I've always been concerned about designers who spoke so much about the performance advantages of certain rigs and yet year after year after year somehow managed to avoid creating a top performer in any class.

Personally i find Bob Perry arrogant, my opinion is based on forum conversations over the years. Making a comment on a public forum about another designer such Eric Spondberg does nothing to persuade me that im wrong. Look up is ranting with Brent Swain on sailnet, its just embarrassing.
All industries need people that view the world differently, Sponbergs passion for stayless rigs is not for everyone, and doesnt have to be, it dosent mean his ideas dont have merit.
Ive had three conventional rigs and one freestanding, imo the freestanding for what i do (cruising) is best. I currently have a sloop rig with wires holding the mast up,not that i think its better , its just my choices are limited.
People are lemmings and us sailors are people, we do what the next bloke does and dont question to much.

[double u]

"....we do what the next bloke does..."
it's called "evolution", you know: survival of the fittest (ideas in this case)
& I wouldn't knock BP as he very likely is the designer with the biggest number of successful rtws to his name & the only designer with THAT kind of "back" (should be "fore") ground that actively participates in fora. That he doesn't take fools gladly - well, who can blame him?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by double u

"....we do what the next bloke does..."
it's called "evolution", you know: survival of the fittest (ideas in this case)
& I wouldn't knock BP as he very likely is the designer with the biggest number of successful rtws to his name & the only designer with THAT kind of "back" (should be "fore") ground that actively participates in fora. That he doesn't take fools gladly - well, who can blame him?

Didnt knock him as a designer, but humbleness is not his strength, i dont question his design track record, but i do judge his attitude, ie hes banned from here, hes entitled to his opinions and to debate them , no need for arrogance, success in a chosen field is no excuse.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by double u

"....we do what the next bloke does..."
it's called "evolution", you know: survival of the fittest (ideas in this case)
& I wouldn't knock BP as he very likely is the designer with the biggest number of successful rtws to his name & the only designer with THAT kind of "back" (should be "fore") ground that actively participates in fora. That he doesn't take fools gladly - well, who can blame him?

And i agree regarding your natural selection, that dosent mean a particular product is the best, there are many reasons a particular product dominates a field, from marketing to price point. Some would say beneteaus, jeaneau, barvarias etc arent the best sailing boats on offer but the modern production boat such as the above certainly lead sales around the world.

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Personally i find Bob Perry arrogant, my opinion is based on forum conversations over the years. Making a comment on a public forum about another designer such Eric Spondberg does nothing to persuade me that im wrong. Look up is ranting with Brent Swain on sailnet, its just embarrassing.
All industries need people that view the world differently, Sponbergs passion for stayless rigs is not for everyone, and doesnt have to be, it dosent mean his ideas dont have merit.
Ive had three conventional rigs and one freestanding, imo the freestanding for what i do (cruising) is best. I currently have a sloop rig with wires holding the mast up,not that i think its better , its just my choices are limited.
People are lemmings and us sailors are people, we do what the next bloke does and dont question to much.

Eric has made disparaging comments about sailors and rulemakers, therefore he is arguably fair game for people to make disparaging comments about his designs. Eric claimed that the standard stayed rig was grossly inefficient and that is was created purely by rating rules "that require that wires hold up the rig". That is simply not true - there are many, many boats that have been built to classes which have no such rules. He claimed that sailors "blindly accepted" triangular mainsails, which is simply wrong - many of us grew up in classes with big roachy mains, and in fact the are not dramatically more efficient as Eric claims. Why Eric ignored that fact is unknown.

I don't know about the sailors you hang out with - the ones I know question many things. They also question the false claims often made about the benefits of unstayed and rotating masts and roachy mains, because most of us have used them for years and found that the claims are often exaggerated. It might be a bit self-defeating for fans of unstayed rigs to claim that sailors choose their rigs because of being lemmings rather than intelligent people, because the five most popular designs in the world all have unstayed rigs and therefore hundreds of thousands of us have had years of experience with them and their issues.

In the end, it's pretty simple - if designers refer to sailors to boats of other designers as having "comparatively poor directional stability and control", being "so archaic" and "very artificial", of sailors who "blindly accept" things and are "insanely conservative" etc etc etc, then they can hardly complain if others write about them in equally harsh terms. And the charge of arrogance can easily be laid at the person who wrote those quotes at least as much as it can be at Bob.