Ketch Advantages/Disadvantages

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That looks like "the red cigar" :-) It is very much like a Sundeer but a yawl instead of a ketch (These were Open 60 designs). Here's another photo:


Nick.

The ketch is Steinlager 2, a Whitbread racer from the 1989's. Sir Peter Blake was the skipper. She won.

[Jack Tar]

I just replaced my sails: $7000 for a mizzen, main and genny. Main is full batten 3 reefs, genny has a foam luff and white UV strip. Mizzen has battens and 2 reefs. Lee sails. Vessel is a Formosa 51. Ketch. Sloops are easyer to sail.

[MikeTurner]

I have a 32' Lazyjack schooner, and I previously owned a 23' Rob Roy yawl.

I don't have any firsthand experience yet, but I'd venture a guess that replacing my sails will be more expensive than replacing a comparable sail area ketch - partly because of the rig (Marconi main, gaff foresail), the rake of the masts and partly because of the low number of similar schooners out there. Whatever sail loft is going to build my new sails, will pretty much have to custom design them, as opposed to having readily available patterns for many of the larger production run sloops, ketches and even yawls out there. This will be particularly true of the fisherman staysail, a sail unique to schooners that hoists to the truck of each mast, tacks at the base of the foremast and sheets to the aft end of the cockpit (this is a light-air sail that fills the empty space above the foresail gaff between the masts, and is the schooner's equivalent of a spinnaker).

As elsewhere discussed in this thread, because the sail area is spread out over more sails, sail handling is eased a bit. The main on my 32' boat is comparable in size to the main on a 27-28' boat; I find it easier to raise and handle than the main on my old Catalina 30. In fact, the schooner doesn't have any main halyard winches, but even so it's not too much of an effort to set it. Main and foresail sheet adjustments are by hand, as are traveler adjustment - no control lines.

One benefit to all the split rigs is reduction of sail area. On my sloop-rigged Catalina 30 I was limited to two reef points on the main and my roller furled genoa. On the schooner, I have two reef points in both the main and foresail, and a 130 roller furled genoa. I've sailed the boat with everything up; main and genoa; foresail and genoa; and foresail alone. The reefing points and roller furling give me quite a few combinations for heavier winds.

With the Rob Roy yawl, we successfully sailed almost 30 miles back to home port when our rudder post broke, flying jib and mizzen and steering with sail control - perhaps another advantage of having all that sail area aft.

Mike Turner
Lazyjack 32 schooner "Mary'Lis"
Mobile Bay, Alabama

[bob perry]

Mike:
30 miles with no rudder! Good on ya.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by MikeTurner

With the Rob Roy yawl, we successfully sailed almost 30 miles back to home port when our rudder post broke, flying jib and mizzen and steering with sail control - perhaps another advantage of having all that sail area aft.

Impressive. And probably the best argument I've ever heard for a yawl.

[Cloroxbottle]

Originally Posted by MikeTurner

With the Rob Roy yawl, we successfully sailed almost 30 miles back to home port when our rudder post broke, flying jib and mizzen and steering with sail control - perhaps another advantage of having all that sail area aft.

Mike Turner
Lazyjack 32 schooner "Mary'Lis"
Mobile Bay, Alabama

Impressive! Out of curiousity, could you share what kind of technique you used to accomplish this? Also, is this something all twin masted boats (ketch and yawl) could accomplish, or only a yawl because the mizzen is so far aft?

[Skip JayR]

I sail lots of schooners, ketches, 2-mast klippers and gaff rigged tjalks (single masted Dutch boat type) professionally (see attachment) ...

Compared with single masted boats I prefer 2-masters, simple because such have more and better trimming options (generally using backstages each for both masts), supports windward agility (tagging) by mizzen's location of sail pressure point in combination with 2-4 headsails (inner and outer jibs)... and smaller sail areas give better = easier handling for smaller crews.

In leigt winds you also can use TopSails between the masts to speed up.

Same experience for me on yachts 15-25 meters I sailed (see attachment) ... for offshore/high seas always I'd prefer a ketch (or schooner). Yawl is more challenging to handle because of its far astern position. Just sailed one time a Yawl. Was O.K., but I don't feel well with to see crew members on the astern end of the boat in heavy seas to reef or hoist the sail.

For small boats around 10-12 meters or less I might think about a simple bermuda rig, just because of the costs (2 masts are more expensive than one) and lack of space on deck.

Another aspect is the emotional one why I love schooner and ketches. - Isn't that beautiful ? :-)

[Breaking Waves]

we went rtw in a ketch, our first 'offshore' boat.

It was not slow, except upwind where it was pretty hopeless, however that probably had as much to do with the (short) keel as the rig.

It was easy to sail in a building breeze - just pack the main neatly away altogether while the weather was not so bad and sail jib and mizzen, and reducing from there was easy - as everything was small.

I am a fan of big Mizzens - we kept adding roach to ours.

All the strings were a bit of a pain for coastal sailing.

I always described it as a good 'beginners rig' because you could mistakes and it would not hurt you too much as the loads were spread out.

After that boat, we got a powerful sloop with a deep keel, as we were going to do things where we absolutely had to sail upwind well. That was not a beginner's boat - it sailed much better in almost every condition (rig taller = better in light air for instance), but if you made a mistake the loads were enormous and it could rip your arm off.

I personally prefer a good sloop, but am happy and comfortable on a ketch.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by avb3

I know there are numerous ketch/sloop/cutter threads, and I have read through most.

If I can sum up, here is what I could obtain out of those:

1. ketch rigged works well for 40 plus footers, not so well for less than 35 feet
2. Ketch slower, but, easier to handle, especially single hand
3. Ketch easier to handle in tough weather/seas

On a ketch you can mount radar, radar reflectors, and other antennas on the mizzen. Putting the radar on the mizzen is a pretty clear win over the three other alternatives: on the mainmast, where the genoa (or staysail, as the case may be) will try to wipe it off the mast on every tack; on its own pole, which is heavy, expensive, and ugly; or on an arch, where it is too low. Situation is similar but not as serious with radar reflectors and things like the AIS. Some people also put a wind turbine up there.


Ketches can be cutter rigged and sometimes are. Some people like the aesthetic regardless of what practical benefits or drawbacks may exist.



Ketches were more popular prior to the widespread adoption of roller reefed headsails. Most of the sail handling and ease of reefing benefits of a ketch also apply to a cutter rig, which has (imo) fewer drawbacks.


Without roller furling, a ketch or cutter will give you the reefing options you need without as many sails in the locker.


With roller reefing you will have better headsail shape with either a cutter or a ketch than with a sloop, at some reef points, because the headsail doesn't have to be sailed while deeply reefed.



You really have to compare specific boats because there are other ways to achieve the benefits of a ketch. For example a low-aspect-ratio cutter with a bowsprit may have just as good bridge clearance as a ketch of similar size. Or a sloop with lightweight design and cutaway keel may not need as tall a rig as a more traditional hull that is ketch rigged.


A ketch will have less heel and better bridge clearance, though, than a sloop with a high rig, especially a fractional rig.

1. Maintenance issues - less stress, therefore less maintenance OR more rigging, therefore more costly maintenance
2. Are replacement sails more expensive because there are more of them, or because they are smaller, less expensive?

The maintenance on a ketch is more. You pay extra every time you pull the mast(s), have the rigging surveyed, and when it is time to replace the rigging.


Sails it depends on how many sails you have the lockers as there are many approaches. You might have several foresails (genoa, storm jib, a drifter or equivalent) and they are all smaller on a ketch than a sloop.

If I missed any of the concerns one should have on ketch rigged boats, I would appreciate input on those also.

On a ketch you have a center cockpit, which has its own pros and cons. Generally you will have less usable overall space because of the obstructions created by the mizzen and its shrouds.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

we went rtw in a ketch, our first 'offshore' boat.

It was not slow, except upwind where it was pretty hopeless, however that probably had as much to do with the (short) keel as the rig.

It was easy to sail in a building breeze - just pack the main neatly away altogether while the weather was not so bad and sail jib and mizzen, and reducing from there was easy - as everything was small.

I am a fan of big Mizzens - we kept adding roach to ours.

All the strings were a bit of a pain for coastal sailing.

I always described it as a good 'beginners rig' because you could mistakes and it would not hurt you too much as the loads were spread out.

After that boat, we got a powerful sloop with a deep keel, as we were going to do things where we absolutely had to sail upwind well. That was not a beginner's boat - it sailed much better in almost every condition (rig taller = better in light air for instance), but if you made a mistake the loads were enormous and it could rip your arm off.

I personally prefer a good sloop, but am happy and comfortable on a ketch.

What would you think about a ketch with a proper deep bulb keel, large roachy mizzen (that is, significant % of mainsail size), masts far apart, fairly high aspect rig, fairly light (<200 D/L), fairly narrow beam, for such purposes? Approximately 20 meters LOA.


The thing is is that it is not only a lack of skill or making a mistake which can "rip your arm off" -- it's all kinds of stuff which can happen sailing long distances and far from civilization.


I've been pretty happy with the cutter rig on my present boat. I use a 95% blade jib 90% of the time and never reef it; the carbon laminate in-mast furling main with vertical battens has a good shape when reefed (it is cut rather flat anyway) and I control sail area with that up to something over 30 knots apparent, when the jib gets put away and the staysail comes out. High aspect rig means large loads on the sheets and sheet leads, but also makes the rig easy to balance. Sailing on jib alone for example is no problem, so variations of sail plan are vast.


Nevertheless, the next boat will be bigger and the loads on this boat are just about the maximum I think I would be really comfortable with. Sheet and sheet lead loads, length and weight of the boom, etc. etc. etc. The mainsail is already too big for reasonable short handed handling without in-mast furling.



Therefore I think seriously about going to a ketch rig. Sailing upwind is important to me -- I sail sometimes thousands of miles upwind in a given year. I know the windage of a ketch rig inevitably harms upwind ability, but with the masts far apart and similar in size, is it so bad? With high aspect sails? Dashew did a lot of ketches like this including all of his last boats -- they were pretty decent upwind, weren't they?


Also I find that with real ocean sailing over long distances, you normally have enough time and enough wind shifts to work up to your upwind destination without requiring the last little bit of upwind ability (unlike say getting across the Baltic out of season ).



You've done a lot of the kind of sailing which I do and which plan to do more of, so I would be particularly interested in your opinion.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by jackdale

The ketch is Steinlager 2, a Whitbread racer from the 1989's. Sir Peter Blake was the skipper. She won.

About the last ketch to win any race where the rig is your choice. And most watching at the time would say it said more about the skipper than the boat.

Ketch and yawl for looks, which improve with size as clearly shown by some of the pictures above. Sloop/cutter for performance, economy, and I'd say single handing too. Unless you have a very specific requirement such as the low air draught mentioned above.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What would you think about a ketch with a proper deep bulb keel, large roachy mizzen (that is, significant % of mainsail size), masts far apart, fairly high aspect rig, fairly light (<200 D/L), fairly narrow beam, for such purposes? Approximately 20 meters LOA.

Yea, generally the dashew formula, but with a better keel. His designs generally had relatively moderate (not deep bulked) keels, and his own vessels used water ballast partially to compensate.

First, I think I have said it before, but I have personal reservations about the 20m size range. Quite big for mom and pop to maintain and handle, but not big enough for good machinery space, redundant equipment, and crew. Dashew’s own boats were 80’, which gives you the space to have proper big boat equipment and redundancy (and pro crew for those of us less dedicated and skilled than dashew).

Second, that said, I’d be quite happy crossing an ocean on such. It’s only real weakness offshore would be light air (because lower air draft) and you can always motor (a dashew ‘secret’ is that he motored quite a bit).

Third, there would be more compromises in coastal use. More true upwind - yes you can fine tune this, but it will never be as good as a sloop and it would be noticeable. And more strings to pull and sails to put away. I would guess going say north up the Chilean channels or up the Red Sea you would just never uncover the mizzen.

Bottom line, as you already know there are many inevitable choices and compromises to be made. A well designed ketch would be good at some things and less so at others. If the plan is lots of long passages, mostly sitting at anchor in between, then the ketch would be first rate. While if the plan was lots of intricate coastal work, i’d much prefer a sloop. On balance for a mixed plan, I’d opt for a fractional sloop if given the choice, but a good ketch would be fine.

I don’t know what I would do about mainsail handling on a 20m boat - either sloop or ketch. When I was younger I would certainly have gone for full battens, good batt cars, slab reefs, lazy jacks, powered winches. For ocean sailing/passagemaking that’s probably what I would still go for, but for coastal work packing those size mains (and the mizzen on the ketch) away every night would be a lot of work and I am not sure I am still fit enough for that. I guess I would have to think about mast furling, no matter how much I dislike it - honestly not sure.

There is no right or wrong answer here. A personal choice/trade-off, and almost Certainty a much bigger gap between a good vs a bad design of either option than between excellent design of each.

Just as an aside - I might mention a 112’ sloop with everything hydraulic furling (with Triple redundant hydraulics and double redundant generators) and push button sheeting, is dead easy to sail, even to singlehanded. There are still a few pretty ugly failure modes, but is pretty resistant to failure.

Breakingwave

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been pretty happy with the cutter rig on my present boat. I use a 95% blade jib 90% of the time and never reef it; the carbon laminate in-mast furling main with vertical battens has a good shape when reefed (it is cut rather flat anyway) and I control sail area with that up to something over 30 knots apparent, when the jib gets put away and the staysail comes out.

You don’t use both the jib and the staysail when going to windward?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You don’t use both the jib and the staysail when going to windward?

For ultimate VMG to windward, sailing hard on the wind, the staysail starts to be a liability, and I put it away. But for anything from a quite close reach to a not too deep broad reach, the staysail is great, and I use it a lot together with the jib. It adds power without adding heeling because the center of effort is so low. I love it.


Mine is self-tacking and shape control is crap with the self tacking gear, but I have learned to barber haul it in a couple of different directions to compensate. What I really need for the staysail is a clew board with multiple holes and maybe I'll have that done next time the sail is in the sailmakers.



Cutter rigs are great, incredibly versatile, doing 99% of what a sloop does well (the drag of the furled staysail upwind being the only thing a cutter gives away to a sloop), and doing probably 70% of what a ketch does well.


Only drawback for my purposes is the large forces involved when the boat gets bigger.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Originally Posted by Dockhead
What would you think about a ketch with a proper deep bulb keel, large roachy mizzen (that is, significant % of mainsail size), masts far apart, fairly high aspect rig, fairly light (<200 D/L), fairly narrow beam, for such purposes? Approximately 20 meters LOA.

Yea, generally the dashew formula, but with a better keel. His designs generally had relatively moderate (not deep bulked) keels, and his own vessels used water ballast partially to compensate.

First, I think I have said it before, but I have personal reservations about the 20m size range. Quite big for mom and pop to maintain and handle, but not big enough for good machinery space, redundant equipment, and crew. Dashew’s own boats were 80’, which gives you the space to have proper big boat equipment and redundancy (and pro crew for those of us less dedicated and skilled than dashew).

Second, that said, I’d be quite happy crossing an ocean on such. It’s only real weakness offshore would be light air (because lower air draft) and you can always motor (a dashew ‘secret’ is that he motored quite a bit).

Third, there would be more compromises in coastal use. More true upwind - yes you can fine tune this, but it will never be as good as a sloop and it would be noticeable. And more strings to pull and sails to put away. I would guess going say north up the Chilean channels or up the Red Sea you would just never uncover the mizzen.

Bottom line, as you already know there are many inevitable choices and compromises to be made. A well designed ketch would be good at some things and less so at others. If the plan is lots of long passages, mostly sitting at anchor in between, then the ketch would be first rate. While if the plan was lots of intricate coastal work, i’d much prefer a sloop. On balance for a mixed plan, I’d opt for a fractional sloop if given the choice, but a good ketch would be fine.

I don’t know what I would do about mainsail handling on a 20m boat - either sloop or ketch. When I was younger I would certainly have gone for full battens, good batt cars, slab reefs, lazy jacks, powered winches. For ocean sailing/passagemaking that’s probably what I would still go for, but for coastal work packing those size mains (and the mizzen on the ketch) away every night would be a lot of work and I am not sure I am still fit enough for that. I guess I would have to think about mast furling, no matter how much I dislike it - honestly not sure.

There is no right or wrong answer here. A personal choice/trade-off, and almost Certainty a much bigger gap between a good vs a bad design of either option than between excellent design of each.

Just as an aside - I might mention a 112’ sloop with everything hydraulic furling (with Triple redundant hydraulics and double redundant generators) and push button sheeting, is dead easy to sail, even to singlehanded. There are still a few pretty ugly failure modes, but is pretty resistant to failure.



Breakingwave

Lot to think about here; thanks very much.


This: "If the plan is lots of long passages, mostly sitting at anchor in between, then the ketch would be first rate. While if the plan was lots of intricate coastal work, i’d much prefer a sloop." sounds about right.


My use case is focused on 4 - 5 day passages and indeed sitting at anchor in between. I do other things with my boats, but this is what I would want to optimize the next boat for. I want to go to further and more remote places.



"Its only real weakness offshore would be light air (because lower air draft) and you can always motor (a dashew ‘secret’ is that he motored quite a bit)."


That doesn't really bother me.I think 90% of cruisers other than weekend and day sailers "motor quite a bit" -- I certainly do, even if I am passionate about sailing. I rather like motoring in a calm, actually.



"I have personal reservations about the 20m size range. Quite big for mom and pop to maintain and handle, but not big enough for good machinery space, redundant equipment, and crew. Dashew’s own boats were 80’, which gives you the space to have proper big boat equipment and redundancy (and pro crew for those of us less dedicated and skilled than dashew)."


Very good point, and more to think about. i had pro crew on my Moody the first few years, and I liked it. I intend to have pro crew in the future. Not primarily to help to sail the boat as to deal with the work load of maintaining it. I spent two whole days in Greenland last year repairing a broken toilet. Two days of peak adventure experience lost to that crap -- boat repair in exotic places indeed. Maybe I need to think about going a bit bigger. Of course, the bigger the boat, the less you feel the compromises of a split rig.