Kayak vs. Dinghy

[Capn Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

What strikes me is that in almost all of the promotional photos, we see the kayaks (and SUP) used in very flat calm waters (often in a marina or small slough on a lake). As a sailor, I would be more interested to see their stability and suitability when used in some chop as when crossing a windy harbor or anchorage to get to a moored boat.

Our kayak fishing club - the Ft Lauderdale Yakfishing Club, and forum - were serious kayakers, and I reviewed and published reviews on many of them. Please accept that there is nothing more stable than a good kayak, especially in bad/horrible weather and conditions. Keep in mind the original Eskimo design had to perform dependably and effectively (fast, stable) etc. cause your ability to eat, fish and hunt depended on that. Designed for survival.

The shape is designed to hold track line. The center of gravity is low as your butt on a good design will be below the waterline. They are fast and require only a single, double ended paddle. With a good tankwell and bungies, it is amazing how much you can safely carry. Of course in bad weather you need wet bags in any craft. They are mostly rotomolded, and there are good designs that weigh around just 50lb, easy lift and launch. They are indestructible, drag em over rocks, etc. Easy shoulder carry on land, like carrying a ladder, balance well and easily. WAY cheaper than an inflatable, and way faster if paddled, and fast. No wake. Ever tried to paddle an inflatable in a strong wind and waves? Easy in a stable kayak. Depending on the boat, they can be tied inside or outside the stanchions, etc. Clever sailors find clever solutions. Tow well, easy and track properly, almost no drag, wobbles or flips, self-righting.

I think inflatables are simply awful - slow, can't hold a line, wet when the breaker smash against the vertical sides, get blown around and off course. Dangerous in my view, in comparison to a kayak.

I have paddled thousands of miles (7 miles/day) for years and I can count on one hand the capsizes - all my fault (eg trying to reach my butt out to take a dump - resulting in a "double dump", lol, to the great amusement of all".

A kayak can be tied to the outside of the stanchions. They will tow like a dream, very little drag, and track properly. There are a couple designs that are for 1 plus 1, or LOTS of gear,. Under no circumstances buy a long and unwieldy 2 person kayak.

Cheers.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Nice pics Thomm225. A great boat that reminds me of my old Luders 33. I bet you sail the heck out of it and it leaves your marina much more often than a bunch of new 40+ footers that stay tied up most of summer

Yes I sail it a lot mostly singlehanded. It's quite easy to handle (with autopilot and roller furling jib) and can also stand up to some pretty heavy conditions

And it's a shame folks sometimes buy the big boats but rarely use them

Speaking of the Luders 33, I have both of Robin Lee Grahams books (the first two anyway) and three National Geographic (1968, 69, 70) that featured his voyage around the world and his two boats one of which was a Luders 33

There are some really nice pictures of that boat in those magazines

Those books and magazines plus my experiences in Florida at our dock with a bunch of old cruising sailors back in the 1990's led me toward this style of boat even though I was racing beach cats at the time

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yes I sail it a lot mostly singlehanded. It's quite easy to handle (with autopilot and roller furling jib) and can also stand up to some pretty heavy conditions

And it's a shame folks sometimes buy the big boats but rarely use them

Speaking of the Luders 33, I have both of Robin Lee Grahams books (the first two anyway) and three National Geographic (1968, 69, 70) that featured his voyage around the world and his two boats one of which was a Luders 33

There are some really nice pictures of that boat in those magazines

Those books and magazines plus my experiences in Florida at our dock with a bunch of old cruising sailors back in the 1990's led me toward this style of boat even though I was racing beach cats at the time

One of my favorite pictures is of his Luders anchored right off of the beach in the Baths which now is roped off. How nice it must have been to stay there before the tourist boom...

[Ungvar]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

If you only go marina to marina, and all transport is done by land before disembarking, then there's nothing wrong with giving a kayak a try, if it is warm enough usually where you are, for you to swim.

This comment is backwards, a quality kayak with a skilled paddler is probably the small boat most suited to cold water, they were originally developped for hunting large marine mammals in the arctic and are the preferred small craft for high latitude expeditions today.

There are solo kayaks designed for multi week expeditions without support from a sailing yacht.

Here is an example of a kayak that would make an excellent tender for a solo sailor any where in the world, cold water or warm. Carrying capacity of 660 pounds and will fold up in a locker while under way.

http://automarine.ca/products/aerius-expedition-i-490/

[Marqus]

Originally Posted by Ungvar

This comment is backwards, a quality kayak with a skilled paddler is probably the small boat most suited to cold water, they were originally developped for hunting large marine mammals in the arctic and are the preferred small craft for high latitude expeditions today.

Many of these arctic style kayaks have quite small cockpit openings to mimimize water coming in and keep legs warm. If your boat doesn't have a swimming platform, it could be tricky to enter from a midships boarding ladder.

I can imagine myself pulling up out of the kayak onto the ladder and the sailboat using a bit of arm strength.

It's getting down the ladder and placing a foot or feet into a small, bouncing cockpit while upright that seems challenging.

So Ungvar, any recommendations on that manouvre if your boat doesn't have a swimming platform?
A linked video would be nice.

[Don C L]

OK, well I've done it. No video though. It was 40 years ago. I had a whitewater kayak, and I could enter it from a boat with low freeboard and when it was choppy. But it was a hassle. It was a trick to slide my legs in to that tight fit, and if I didn't use the spray skirt, I'd get a wet lap eventually. It was fast though, but entirely impractical. I would bring my laundry in from the anchorage and take groceries out in the evening, and that was the hardest part. I was really happy when I finally got my slip in the harbor. So I am not sure why anyone would ever advocate a whitewater, or even a rigid, "sit inside" kayak. Maybe for the speed, but that's about it. But, at least as I mentioned months ago, my inflatable kayak is a whole different ball game, for anyone who is not planning to use an outboard and/or doesn't have the room for a more common dinghy design.

[IslandHopper]

Here's my fishing Kayak 3.6m (12ft), i've used it quite a few time for running ashore for stores, i've got about a doz dry bags of various sizes that i take with me, plenty of sealed storage up front with a big boot (trunk) that i use with the dry bags. Works ok and is very stable, easy to step into of my boat ladder and stable enough to stand up in......

.....but, this was primarily bought for exploring/fishing and the fitness benefit, for most store runs and socialising ashore the pick up (RIB) is the go-to vessel

[Marqus]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

...and is very stable, easy to step into of my boat ladder and stable enough to stand up in......

Yes, very nice Hopper.

But then there's a subtle but significant difference between wriggling your legs into an enclosed kayak with smallish cockpit (so designed to cope with cold water and weather), and getting your bum down onto an open sit-on-top like yours. Chalk and cheese I'd say.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by Ungvar

This comment is backwards, a quality kayak with a skilled paddler is probably the small boat most suited to cold water, they were originally developped for hunting large marine mammals in the arctic and are the preferred small craft for high latitude expeditions today.

There are solo kayaks designed for multi week expeditions without support from a sailing yacht.

Here is an example of a kayak that would make an excellent tender for a solo sailor any where in the world, cold water or warm. Carrying capacity of 660 pounds and will fold up in a locker while under way.

Aerius I 490 SL Expedition - Calgary's Inflatable Boat Center

Apples and oranges.... Depends on what you need it to do, but cruising and esp living aboard is as far from week long alaska paddles as you can get. No doubt these things are cool for that purpose when all you have is a little alcohol stove and micro tent to your name, but less so when you need to bring back a case of beer and a few bags of groceries in a heavy chop. Or to go a few miles with diving gear to have some fun. Or to have a nice dinner in town on a less than starry night from the anchorage. Also, at 8000 bucks for the one person, you could buy 2 of any dinghy good enough to do all of the above with 4 onboard.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Marqus

Yes, very nice Hopper.

But then there's a subtle but significant difference between wriggling your legs into an enclosed kayak with smallish cockpit (so designed to cope with cold water and weather), and getting your bum down onto an open sit-on-top like yours. Chalk and cheese I'd say.

But then i was staying on topic and answering the OP's question about sit on yaks, the op makes no mention about enclosed and i have no interest in them.......

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Ungvar

This comment is backwards, a quality kayak with a skilled paddler is probably the small boat most suited to cold water, they were originally developped for hunting large marine mammals in the arctic and are the preferred small craft for high latitude expeditions today.

There are solo kayaks designed for multi week expeditions without support from a sailing yacht.

Here is an example of a kayak that would make an excellent tender for a solo sailor any where in the world, cold water or warm. Carrying capacity of 660 pounds and will fold up in a locker while under way.

Aerius I 490 SL Expedition - Calgary's Inflatable Boat Center

So let's say you are going ashore for a dinner party. you're in a Spanish language country so you expect to start around 9pm, and possibly not get back until 3 am. You are wearing your favourite shirt, and some decent jeans/trousers. Do you really slip yourself into a kayak and paddle to shore?

In the med this scenario would be very common, eat late, party a little, come back to the boat, perhaps even with a lady friend.

[Marqus]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

But then i was staying on topic and answering the OP's question about sit on yaks, the op makes no mention about enclosed and i have no interest in them.......

Ok Hopper, touch slippery but quite right. I'll have to blame Jimbo and Ungvar then for sucking me in to their promotion of arctic style kayaks ...

Now I actually quite like those arctic kayaks - they go fast, and the faster you paddle, the more secure and stable you feel even in side-on chop. Like a bicycle - feels like you're on rails when going at a good clip. Would be a nice and non-strenuous warm-up to do a nm from the boat to the dock in one of the longer ones.

But the challenge remains open for arctic kayak fans to demo how to manoeuvre your legs in and stay dry when coming down a midships ladder.
Or make it clear they're only suitable for swim platform launching.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Marqus

Ok Hopper, touch slippery but quite right. I'll have to blame Jimbo and Ungvar then for sucking me in to their promotion of arctic style kayaks ...

Now I actually quite like those arctic kayaks - they go fast, and the faster you paddle, the more secure and stable you feel even in side-on chop. Like a bicycle - feels like you're on rails when going at a good clip. Would be a nice and non-strenuous warm-up to do a nm from the boat to the dock in one of the longer ones.

But the challenge remains open for arctic kayak fans to demo how to manoeuvre your legs in and stay dry when coming down a midships ladder.
Or make it clear they're only suitable for swim platform launching.

I guess that depends on the person.

If you aren't too overweight and are pretty good at balancing you can enter and exit alright but it can still be an adventure

I do it and do not have a ladder which I'm thinking might make it easier. I enter from the cockpit on my boat which has a low freeboard and I'm 6' tall with near 34 inseam which makes it harder. I'm over 60 also.

My kayak is 16'6" x 24" x 12". It weighs 39 lbs and has a spray skirt but I rarely use it. The kayak is based on arctic style kayaks with it's skin and frame. It fits in a backpack when disassembled. Cockpit size is 34" x 16"

https://www.rei.com/product/850521/f...-folding-kayak

I weigh about 188 lbs and the kayak can carry about 275 lbs so there is
room for supplies but unloading would be work either from the kayak or reaching over from the boat. You'd have to divide up the load into smaller plastic bags not large grocery bags

[Ungvar]

Originally Posted by Marqus

But the challenge remains open for arctic kayak fans to demo how to manoeuvre your legs in and stay dry when coming down a midships ladder.
Or make it clear they're only suitable for swim platform launching.

I am not posting a video, but people board kayaks from boat ladders, dock ladders, beaches, ice edges, rocky shorelines and surf zones all the time.

1) get a suitable kayak for your skill and fitness level. A racing kayak might have a beam of 21 inches and a rounded bottom, not an ideal choice for a beginner. The Klepper I posted above has a large open cockpit and a 28 inch beam. They are quite stable. My Folbot is similar. My Folbot is easy to board from a ladder.

2) if you require additional stability while boarding, place the blade of your greenland paddle through the deck webbing of the kayak, perpindicular to the boat. The positive bouyancy in the greenland paddle will act as an outrigger and provide additional stability while you board.

3) if you are still not confident in your ability to board, inflate your paddle float and do as recomended in number 2. Now you have an inflatable outrigger on the end of a 6 footpole and the kayak is extremely stable. Once in the kayak, put on your spray skirt, remove the paddle float from your paddle and start paddling.

[Ungvar]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Apples and oranges.... Depends on what you need it to do, but cruising and esp living aboard is as far from week long alaska paddles as you can get. No doubt these things are cool for that purpose when all you have is a little alcohol stove and micro tent to your name, but less so when you need to bring back a case of beer and a few bags of groceries in a heavy chop. Or to go a few miles with diving gear to have some fun. Or to have a nice dinner in town on a less than starry night from the anchorage. Also, at 8000 bucks for the one person, you could buy 2 of any dinghy good enough to do all of the above with 4 onboard.

I have cruised and lived aboard with a kayak as a tender. Its not that hard.

Yes, you can fit a case of beer and groceries into a Klepper or Folbot. Assuming a 180 pound paddler, that leaves 480 pounds of payload for your beer and groceries. 480 pounds isn't enough, take two trips.

If you like motoring, then buy a motorboat for your dinghy. Some of us would rather paddle/sail.