junk rig, why, advantages?

[Fore and Aft]

Paul Howard you should have mentioned your two excellent books you co wrote with your wife. I really enjoyed reading both of them and they are part of my nautical library. Were there ever days you wished that you had more sail? Do you have another junk now?
Cheers

[barnakiel]

Re: quirky look - well, all boats in HK look like this I know you meant respect.


Re: performance - all other things kept similar, it beats top rigged sloops off the wind hands down.


Simple, efficient, inexpensive, elegant. Junk rig. Yes.



Etc.


I met the lady on Speedwell of Hong Kong and not once but many times, both sides of the pond. Go do this then talk doubt unk rigged boats. Also think Hassler, think Hassler - and this alone should help.


Cheers,
b.

[stillbuilding]

Just To keep the conversation going- I have two 60’ Freya designs. I am in the process of converting the older project from a Bermuda ketch to a junk rigged schooner. Minimal structural work required. The newer build will be carbon fibre sloop rigged. Just for fun trying out the JR cos I chatted with Tom Colvin and watched several JR vessels being built and sailed successfully over many decades. Too many successful voyages by small and larger vessels to discount the rig.

There have been lots of innovations in recent years which gives lots of options in design so certainly worthwhile giving closer look. There is never one answer to any question though.[emoji38]

[Arthurwg]

Suggest reading "The Junks & Sampans of the Yangtze." by G.R.G. Worcester.

[stillbuilding]

Yes, some useful pics with details of rigging.

Only a couple of junk rigged vessels remaining in HK I fear. Lots of junk- like hulls but junk rigging almost disappeared except for a few tourist vessels.

[DanielCZ]

While I'm learning more about the Junk Rig, it is really appealing to me. I try to understand the sail area, is there a rule of thumb, or guideline on the size of the sail to the parameter of the boat? Some people ad a Jib/Genoa to improve the performance, thou that would for me cut into the one big advantage JR has = simplicity. How is tacking up wind working?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by charliehows

junk rig will continue to have a limited enthusiast audience but it is as outmoded as the square rig by the simple combination of 'new' technologies such as wire rigging, aluminium spars and dacron sails allowing larger and much more efficient sail areas.

I haven't sailed a junk rig but the modern sloop rig is mostly gained favor due to racing which puts an inordinate emphasis on going to windward.

Modern materials have made it possible to use on cruising boats but for many cruisers, it's not necessarily the best option since many (most?) cruisers avoid going to windward whenever possible and would benefit from a rig that does better off the wind, particularly in light conditions.

Problem is there are enough racers that manufacturers prefer the simplicity of designing for a single rig type...if you buy a stock boat for cruising, that typically means you get a sloop rig.

[Paul Howard]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Paul Howard you should have mentioned your two excellent books you co wrote with your wife. I really enjoyed reading both of them and they are part of my nautical library. Were there ever days you wished that you had more sail? Do you have another junk now?
Cheers

Yes, we did write two books about our five year circumnavigation of the world on our junk rigged boat, but that voyaging was 1983 to 1988 and the books were published in 1988 and 1991, Mclellan and Stewart, All in the Same Boat and Still in the Same Boat, Fiona McCall and Paul Howard.
They are long out of print, though some people still purchase them second hand on various sites like Amazon.
We are now catamaran sailors with typical fractional bermuda rig, though I still have a soft spot in my heart for the junk rig. It was ideal for us doing long ocean passages with short-handed crew and small children.
I was tempted to do a bi-plane junk rig on a catamaran like some have done, though did not want to build a boat from scratch and adapting a present boat to the junk rig would be costly and involve lots of work. I did search for a damaged catamaran or one without a rig, though did not find something I wanted at that time. We sailed our first catamaran about 60,00miles to high latitudes (north of Arctic circle to south around cape horn), our second catamaran is more performance oriented and after a Bahamas and Cuba trip, I now do local sailing and club racing.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by DanielCZ

While I'm learning more about the Junk Rig, it is really appealing to me. I try to understand the sail area, is there a rule of thumb, or guideline on the size of the sail to the parameter of the boat? Some people ad a Jib/Genoa to improve the performance, thou that would for me cut into the one big advantage JR has = simplicity. How is tacking up wind working?

Read https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Jun...gateway&sr=8-1


Later,
Dan

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by DanielCZ

While I'm learning more about the Junk Rig, it is really appealing to me. I try to understand the sail area, is there a rule of thumb, or guideline on the size of the sail to the parameter of the boat? Some people ad a Jib/Genoa to improve the performance, thou that would for me cut into the one big advantage JR has = simplicity. How is tacking up wind working?

As ever, you want max SA. This guarantees light airs performance. Because you can always make a big area smaller. Not quite so the other way round.


b.

[stillbuilding]

My reading is that junk sail design has improved upwind performance significantly in recent years.

I am in the process of converting to junk rig and incorporating cambered panels and other sail handling measures which I would not have considered twenty years ago.

[DanielCZ]

I'm planning to buy a small old boat, and Junk Rigging is in my target, seriously thinking about the Coromandel, basically a Corribee Junk Rigged
Do you have any reference on how it improved in the recent years, I was looking on youtube on some tutoring materials, and when it comes to Junk Rigs, there is nothing on tutoring, just people who have the Rigs. Has the design improved, the materials? Guess both, right?

[HappySeagull]

Originally Posted by DanielCZ
While I'm learning more about the Junk Rig, it is really appealing to me. I try to understand the sail area, is there a rule of thumb, or guideline on the size of the sail to the parameter of the boat? Some people ad a Jib/Genoa to improve the performance, thou that would for me cut into the one big advantage JR has = simplicity. How is tacking up wind working?

roughy speaking, go for 10-15% more unless you are living in a very windy place.


BUT be aware of the "Centre of effort" If you design sails that have it far outboard downwind, compared to the original design, you will have trouble steering.



As to the wonders of junks downwind, they are pretty good at keeping wind in their sails (having less edge-to-area than triangles) up to the point where any boat will keep wind in their sails...ie: triangular jibs naturally fall inboard without poles...that said, boat with a spinnaker or poled out sails can catch up , but if you run far up by the lee (which you can with an unstayed mast),or gybe they will have to work changing it all over.




The corribee here has a pretty good looking sail, to my eye, yet I'd wonder if the battens didn't bend to leeward around the mast..for what that's worth.

https://tammynorie.wordpress.com/


Because... junk sails can be shifted for and aft with running parrels to change the sail's balance in light airs. and also this controls the leeward bend of battens.. Particularly important in mono-sails.


in my junk, with an unstayed mast, a foresail luff cannot be taut except in the lightest breeze. Consider also the difficulty of tacking such a sail around the luff of a junksail which projects ahead of the mast...the linked junk above will need to haul the sail aft a long way to get a jib around it...especially an overlapping one. So, setting a sail "flying" should be seen as "something to occupy yourself" in near-calms..albeit, it can help a lot if it sweeps the deck. High cut jibs wouldn't be worth the effort, imo.



"How is tacking working?" They tack fine. Going to windward? overall, simply put, where something is mentioned too often (going to windward) that's a clue. random details are: without a jib, Quietly. not quickly. Luff is what the wind sees -not area so much...Junks need a mast for each luff. Marconi rigs have two luffs.... Junk sheeting is essentially like carrying a fishnet directly to windward .( how this compares to stays and spreaders on a marconi, someone else can judge..).


Junk sheeting can partially control the twist that is inherent in quadrilateral sails carried aft of the mast...See gaff rigs as a comparison. As to the ways of doing it, it's not inscrutable, it's "statics"... as to an entirely untwisted sail,upwind , it's very difficult .



As to safety, the same fishnet will fish back and forth through your cockpit on every tack. Binoculars, cushions,children, all gone. You must plan for this. With a canopy is my solution. As to "booms" there really isn't one. The lowest batten is only as dangerous as its weight and I can't recall it ever moving quickly or with great force. If it's in your way going forward, lift it with your hand. Junks can also furl "upward" with their sail lifts ("lazy jacks") a wonderful thing going forward when landing at a dock.

A junk would be the best motorsailer or fishboat. They don't flap, they are intensely maneuverable with throttles for picking up gear, trolling, stopping.


That said (quiet) it's a horror in a rolling calm when battens rattle and swoop, flinging their sheetlets around. You must lower sail in wait it out or start a motor in this stuff.

The greatest modern improvement is polyester rope. and maybe sails, though in junks not so necessary... any sail material will chafe at the mast, more so when raised and lowered and crushed in a furled sail....the sail will suffer this most in the lower panels.


Junkrig will chafe the mast at the running yard haul parrel and the running luff parrels if you have these. So, long term, thin materials in hollow masts are to be avoided .



The bundle of the lowered sail is heavy and must not be allowed to move at anchor. if the mast is unstayed ,you will bend the mast permanently before you will ever stop it entirely moving . You need a boom gallows. OR lower the bundle onto the deck, lazy jacks relaxed. at anchor ,You cannot just leave it in the lazy jacks and sheet it tight. However, in a very strong wind,I fancy I can sail a closer reach with the bundle alone.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by DanielCZ

I'm planning to buy a small old boat, and Junk Rigging is in my target, seriously thinking about the Coromandel, basically a Corribee Junk Rigged
Do you have any reference on how it improved in the recent years, I was looking on youtube on some tutoring materials, and when it comes to Junk Rigs, there is nothing on tutoring, just people who have the Rigs. Has the design improved, the materials? Guess both, right?

Read and join the Junk Rig Association, https://www.junkrigassociation.org/


Later,
Dan

[dasreboot]

PBO did a comparison test with the same model boat.

https://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/ber...junk-rig-17481