Island Packet 349

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

I don't get all this hate (especially from one poster) for Island Packets.

We buddy boat regularly with an IP38. They regularly do as well (and downwind, usually better) than us on our supposedly faster boat. (OK, they're better sailors....)

Why not compare PHRF ratings?

For example:
Bristol 40: 162
Pacific Seacraft 37: 186
Sceptre 41/43: 120
Valiant 40-1: 138
Whitby 42: 174
IP 38: 168
IP 40: 156
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

IPs are not racing boats - - never intended to be - - but not slouches and certainly NOT a "motorsailer".

Comparing PHRF ratings can be illuminating, especially if you cherry pick the vessels you compare. For example, my old Yankee 30, a design from the late 60s by S&S, a very ordinary non-racer for its time, had a PHRF of 162. Note that this is a 30 foot boat with a 25 foot LWL and rates about the same as the IPs in question, and does hint at their being a bit "slouchy". However, I do agree that they are not motorsailors by most folks definitions.

No hate from me, BTW, but a keen interest in sailing prowess!

Jim

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Comparing PHRF ratings can be illuminating, especially if you cherry pick the vessels you compare. For example, my old Yankee 30, a design from the late 60s by S&S, a very ordinary non-racer for its time, had a PHRF of 162. Note that this is a 30 foot boat with a 25 foot LWL and rates about the same as the IPs in question, and does hint at their being a bit "slouchy". However, I do agree that they are not motorsailors by most folks definitions.



No hate from me, BTW, but a keen interest in sailing prowess!



Jim

I did indeed "cherry pick"!

Wanted to show some cruising boat comparisons.
Hard to complain about a Valiant 40. Doubt anyone call a Whitby 42 or a Pacific Seacraft 37 "dangerous" or "motorsailers"? .

Certainly, I could have added faster boats. Many that wouldn't be my 1st choice to take offshore (everyone has their own biases).

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

I did indeed "cherry pick"!

Wanted to show some cruising boat comparisons.
Hard to complain about a Valiant 40. Doubt anyone call a Whitby 42 or a Pacific Seacraft 37 "dangerous" or "motorsailers"? .

Certainly, I could have added faster boats. Many that wouldn't be my 1st choice to take offshore (everyone has their own biases).

I wouldn't call the Whitby 42 a great sailing boat (I've sailed in company with several belonging to friends), nor would I call it dangerous, just kinda sluggy, especially to windward. Canadian friends in one gave up on a passage from Brisbane to New Cal after beating for two weeks into the trades... turned around and came back with leaking hull to deck joints and no more rum.

BTW, I note that your Sceptre 41 rates around 50 seconds per mile faster than the IP 38. That's a HUGE difference! And it demonstrates that there is no need to accept lousy sailing performance, even in what is demonstrably a cruising boat of conservative design. (There must be some reason other than design if an IP38 is quicker than your boat.)

Anyhow, there's room for all sorts of boats in the anchorage, and one gets to buy the design that you like. I too find the "haters" to be kinda grating... IPs are not my cuppa tea, but if it fills someone else's heart with joy, good on'em, and I'll be glad to share a happy hour with them, my boat or theirs.

Jim

[kiwin]

So a Valiant 40. From, I think 1972? And let's face it, it was hardly ground breaking in 1972 was it? And that's 50 years ago.....

[kiwin]

And I believe the Whitby is also 1971..
.

[sv_pelagia]

As I said, our friends on their IP38 are probably better sailors than us (but don't tell them that[emoji6])

Crewed on a Valiant 40 from Hawaii to Vancouver (skipper/friend with my wife and I as crew). Fantastic boat; fantastic trip (with some wild days)!

[rotrax]

Originally Posted by kiwin

So a Valiant 40. From, I think 1972? And let's face it, it was hardly ground breaking in 1972 was it? And that's 50 years ago.....

I was well aquainted with a bloke named Ron Amey. A near neighbour and fellow motorcyclist as well as a serious collector of fine Vintage motorcycles and cars.


He was also in the British team - once with Edward Heath, the then PM - which won the prestigious Admirals Cup a couple of times, so he also knew how to skipper a fully crewed ocean race boat.


He was cute enough, however, to use a boat more suitable for cruising when relaxing.


As a multi millionaire he used a Med based 70 footer with pro crew for entertaining his business guests and, as we found later, his mistress. Or should that be plural..................



All boats are a compromise. If you cant see that you are obtuse.


Our Motor Sailer weighs in at close to 17 tons fully loaded with cruising gear and full tanks. Perhaps twice the weight of other faster sailing boats with better performance of a similar length.


As I have stated, it will not suit all other sailors. By the tone of your posts it would not suit you.


Which is fine. It suits First Mate and I very well. We researched and viewed boats for two years before making the change.


We knew EXACTLY what we were getting.


And have no regrets

[rslifkin]

Island Packet doesn't exactly sell a lot of boats these days (their early 31 and 32 footers were probably the most universally likeable of their designs), but I can't say I've ever met an IP owner that wasn't happy with their boat. They're definitely slow in light air, but as long as there's enough wind, the owners I've met all indicate they sail well enough. Maneuvering them in tight spaces with a lot of wind can be a challenge though.

[DDabs]

Island Packet is under relatively new ownership and their factory is actually extremely busy... they're churning out quite a few of the new 439.

Not only that, but it should be noted that most Island Packet owners have actually had more than one Island Packet. They must be doing something right.

[kiwin]

Alot of people joined the Moonies too. Doesn't make it right.

[rotrax]

Originally Posted by kiwin

Alot of people joined the Moonies too. Doesn't make it right.

Quite right.


And, in EXACTLY the same vein, it does not make your choice right, except for you.


You dont like slow, heavy and poor sailing boats. Cool.


I do, because for my wife and I, mid 70's and with some physical defects, the comfort alongside or on the hook outweighs the shortcomings.


Thats cool too

[altinr]

This is just not true!
Island Packets sail wonderfully in heavy and medium air, and are a bit slower than a racing design downwind, unless the proper sails are used. They are designed and provide a comfortable and safe ride!
Having owned many sailboats, both with fin keels and Island Packets, I'd much prefer to be on a lee shore with a strong wind and rough sea in an Island Packet (such as my 350) than my old Freedom 32, Freedom 38, or O'Day 27!
As an example ... I spent a nasty day sailing my IP 350 from Atlantic City to Cape May, with a southerly breeze of 25-30 knots, heading SW at 45 degrees to the wind at 5 knots, with a reefed main and the staysail, comfortably sipping coffee in my cockpit and watching the 5' waves pass by... the sound of an IP in these conditions is a comforting "swish" when you hit a wave, rather than the "smack" of a flat bottom fin Keeler! Much preferable!

Originally Posted by kiwin

I have sailedmany full & fin keel boats. Directional stability us more a function of hull design than keel design and the hull/rig interaction. The two most directionally stable boats I have sailed were both fin & spade boats. What they had in common was long narrow hulls with moderate stern sections. The modern trend toward double aft cabin Jlo sterns makes for horrible boats. Both the fin & spade boats I am referring to would hold a course for tens of minutes without attention to the steering if properly trimmed. I have sailed a couple of full keel boats close to this as well, both of them with symmetric underwater sections which did not appreciably change with heel. Given this it makes sense to choose a hydrodynamically superior underbody. Many modern fin & spade boats are too fragile. That is an outcome of poor build quality, not intrinsic to a fin & spade configuration. There are many solidly built cruising boats with better performance than an island packet. Island packets are very well built, but a well built bad idea is still a bad idea.

[rotrax]

We had a 350 previously. A great boat, and, as you say, very seaworthy.


We would often be one of only a few boats out when it was windy.


She handled everything we ever experienced with ease and was very confidence inspiring.


As you say, very well balanced in 20-30 kts with reefed main and staysail.


She handled the notorious Solent short chop easily and also the often severe steep wind over tide wave build up we encounter with prevailing W and SW winds and an E-W aligned coast.


She did get 'squirrely' with a big sea on a stern quarter, but, dont they all!

[denizati]

This thread seems to have taken a turn towards Island Packet pros and cons which is ok, but can anyone comment on the merits of the newer designs (349/439) or should they just be lumped in with other IP's due to keel design? I was led to believe that the newer sail rig addresses some of the low wind performance concerns. I know there are only a handful of them out there now, but I would expect someone to know someone ??

[kiwin]

More power will always improve light air performance. But the woeful underbody is never going to produce much lift, so despite pointing or heading at 45 degrees to true wind, the boat will not be making any where near that. Leeway angles for these things are at least 10 degrees, more in a seaway. Downwind they are fine.