Is this the diamond in the rough?

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Not completely. Old sails can be recut to take the bags out of them. Plus on most modern boats, the main does not do that much for speed as compared to a jib or spinnaker. We recut ours quite a few times till we made it into a mizzen sail. Of course that is with heavy Dacron where the fabric is thick to begin with.

You might get one decent recut out of a sail, after that it's toast. The fabric just can't hold its shape anymore.

And I don't know where you got the idea that on modern boats the main doesn't do much. Unless your definition of modern stopped at the CCA designs. Actual modern boats are almost exclusively main driven with a jib just for balance.


Look I get it good sails are expensive, and you can almost always get them to work for another season by just ignoring the handeling penalty. But new sails are probably the single most noticeable performance upgrade there is. You will sail higher, faster, and with less heel than with blown out ones. Which is why racers replace them regularly. It isn't because they are looking for places to spend money, it's because there really is a difference.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by gjordan

There is no one better than a sail maker that is going to make thousands of dollars off of you, to tell you that you need a new sail???? Almost every used boat ever bought has come with used sails, therefore the implication seems to be that they should all be thrown out and have new sails made???? Yes, there are some trashed sails for sale, but there are many from reputable re-sellers that are fine at much less than new prices. Many of us would like all new sails, but the people that recommend that it is necessary are not writing the checks for them. The dollar estimates thrown around in this thread seem pretty wild. Maybe a 100K$ to out fit after the boat is up to basics??? I understand that there are people that are afraid to go beyond the breakwater without 60K$ worth of electronics, but probably 55K$ of that is not really needed, unless someone has told you, Oh you cant do without some new gadget. It sure is easy to spend other peoples money on the internet. Just a mild rant. ____Grant.

Then keep on using your old retreads and never really experience the difference if that's what you prefer.. We've had our sails recut before by a North Sails loft, the difference was..... Under whelming at best.

[AZ Parothead]

Originally Posted by gjordan

There is no one better than a sail maker that is going to make thousands of dollars off of you, to tell you that you need a new sail???? Almost every used boat ever bought has come with used sails, therefore the implication seems to be that they should all be thrown out and have new sails made???? Yes, there are some trashed sails for sale, but there are many from reputable re-sellers that are fine at much less than new prices. Many of us would like all new sails, but the people that recommend that it is necessary are not writing the checks for them. The dollar estimates thrown around in this thread seem pretty wild. Maybe a 100K$ to out fit after the boat is up to basics??? I understand that there are people that are afraid to go beyond the breakwater without 60K$ worth of electronics, but probably 55K$ of that is not really needed, unless someone has told you, Oh you cant do without some new gadget. It sure is easy to spend other peoples money on the internet. Just a mild rant. ____Grant.

Thanks for your continued comments. When I run or quote a project I usually offer up 3 options--bare minimum, compromise, gold plate. I think there is some of this here. God knows the sky's the limit. I think the repairs break out this way:

bare min:

1. Deck removal, repair, reglass.
2. Strengthen the cabin top
3. Repair the bow gelcoat damage
4. fix the stanchions
5. fix the leaky packing gland
6. bottom job

Compromise

1-6 above plus:
7. New running rigging
8. Motor and generator repair/replace
9. Repaint the hull

Gold Option
1-9 above
10. New sails
11. AC and other bells and whistles.

[AZ Parothead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Then keep on using your old retreads and never really experience the difference if that's what you prefer.. We've had our sails recut before by a North Sails loft, the difference was..... Under whelming at best.

From your sig, you have a beautiful Oyster. They are great boats and I'm sure you love it. New sails probably makes sense for your boat. For a 35 yr old cruiser toward the end of her useful life I'm not sure it computes.

But I agree that the performance of a new sail would be vastly superior to a used one.

[El Pinguino]

Four words .... away land run fill

'35 yr old cruiser toward the end of her useful life' ....
'1. Deck removal, repair, reglass............
.....Gold Option......
......
11. AC and other bells and whistles.'

'Silk purse' and 'sows's ear' come to mind

[SoundWave]

Heck to the NO.

We went down this path. Bought a project boat, poured time and money into her for a year, got about 1/2 way finished, sold her at 33% loss
(which I consider a tuition of sorts)

Bought a 15 year old 40' cruiser that had been well maintained/ constantly upfit and was ready to go. At Yachtworld market price less haggling, and we're loving it.

I missed sailing too much.

[fuentes]

My Son and I plan to take our Leopard to Puerto Penasco in October to repair damaged sacrificial keel and bottom paint. Any suggestions as to who and what kind of experiences you have had having work done there?

[captlloyd]

If you like doing projects, go for it. I built a 63ft steel sailboat from scratch. I know projects. Ask the fiberglass boys what their opinion is. Can you do some of the work? Seems like a nice project to be doing this winter down Mexico way.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by AZ Parothead

Looking for some input. This boat is a 1978 Formosa 46 currently wallowing away in Puerto Penasco. Have checked her out thoroughly and it would be a
major project to restore her. We have skilled high quality marine labor available here.

What would have to be done:
1. Remove the deck and reglass underneath
2. Rebuild the cabintop (maybe new portlights)
3. Repair a leak in the stuffing box
4. New tanks
5. New wiring
6. Newer sails
7. New running rigging.

There are currently 6 other Formosa 46's for sale on YachtWorld--all LISTED around 100K. Owner wants for 14 for this boat and I'd offer 7 and wouldn't pay more than 10. We have rehab'd boats before (new motors, transoms etc) but this would be the largest project we've undertaken.

So knowing the risks, what do you think??? More info and photos can be found in this thread:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lz-169816.html

I am currently 50/50. The Admiral is 70/30 yes.

Truly appreciate your opinions!

Thanks!

Labor costs will quickly match the other boat prices just to fix the issues you know about.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[barnaclejim]

So many projects ago. If we had completed everything we discovered we might still be in the yard... We did all the work ourselves and it cost that much to have a dependable boat. New fuel tanks built into the hull below the salon, meaning new salon, new standing and running rigging, new travelers and blocks and shivs, new paint and fasteners on the mast, new teak for the coachtop, and we are still nursing the old decks. electronics and auto pilot, watermaker, general repair of all the hatches and ports, new refrigeration, water pumps, bilge pumps, new batteries and wiring, lights inside and out. Lots of stuff for us, crows nest ratlines, cockpit cushions, dodger and bimini, paint, blood, splinters, nurtured drinking habits and dreams. Great magic but so very expensive. Formosas have good and bad years. Look closely. Surveyors are not good for much. If the core is compromised from years of leaks it could mean deep rot and you might be breathing mold forever. If you are of the same twisted dain bramaged set as we well then carry on! keep the Gin close. and fair winds

[JPA Cate]

PARROTHEAD, listen, you left out the tanks. Don't think you can do that, really.

I'm thinking this is a walkaway; you should be able to find another fixer-upper that has less stuff wrong with it.

Y'all might even consider an old ocen race boat. Old enough, and they were built stoutly, with minimal above decks varnish to maintain. Good performers on and off the wind. Deep drafts, but that's just one of the compromises, you anchor a little further offshore.

The Formosa you're looking at most likely has a lot of hidden water damage, plus all it's other issues. Strongly suggest you ask someone whom you can trust what, generically, they'd expect to be wrong with a 40 plus yr. old Taiwan built boat, maybe some one like minaret who has lots of experience with re-builds?

Ann

[AZ Parothead]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

PARROTHEAD, listen, you left out the tanks. Don't think you can do that, really.

I'm thinking this is a walkaway; you should be able to find another fixer-upper that has less stuff wrong with it.

Y'all might even consider an old ocen race boat. Old enough, and they were built stoutly, with minimal above decks varnish to maintain. Good performers on and off the wind. Deep drafts, but that's just one of the compromises, you anchor a little further offshore.

The Formosa you're looking at most likely has a lot of hidden water damage, plus all it's other issues. Strongly suggest you ask someone whom you can trust what, generically, they'd expect to be wrong with a 40 plus yr. old Taiwan built boat, maybe some one like minaret who has lots of experience with re-builds?

Ann

Thanks Ann. Yes, the tanks are scary. I looked at the deck again the other day and it's a lot of labor but it's fixable. the tanks are structural. I have a guy coming out to take a look and see if he can see any rot in the bulkheads or leaks around the tanks.

[ParadiseParrot]

Why would a coastal cruiser want a Formosa anyway. Get something fun to sail with minimum wood. Good new rigging is cheap insurance.New primary sails should be top on the list.I have seen people spend 2 to 3 grand upgrading their toilets.Good rigging and sails will keep the rig up and moving for decades. Where to save money? Low use sails like storm jib , trisail ( a useless invention really), spinnaker etc can be bought used usually in like new shape from the racer set through Atlantic sails or similar. Sometimes electronics can be gotten at steep discounts but a coastal sailor only needs a basic chart plotter and a depth sounder and a good vhf radio. Have you ever seen a 35 foot weekender with 20 year old sails and 15k worth of electronics he doesnt need? I have seen many at the marina. If you dont have good sails you will motor half the time which will soon lead to lots of maintanance and engine repair ending in some half as***d "rebuild followed by a for sale sign on the boat.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Completely wrong, sails pull the boat forward via an airfoil like an airplane wing. So unless you only plan on sailing directly downwind, used sails will be nearly useless bashing upwind.

I know... We just replaced a used mainsail which was nearly useless.

Would you like to buy it?

Fortunately, Ken, there are other folks to buy used sails from. Back when I was a very fiscallly challenged sailor, I had great success buying used sails from Bacon in Annapolis, even though I was in SF. They were far from useless, in fact I won some races with them (it was admittedly a less competitive era and venue).

So, I surely wouldn't buy your crapped out main, but buying a lightly used sail for less than 1/3 new cost seems like it is still a good deal.

You should stick to subjects in which you actually have knowledge or/and experience.

Jim

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Fortunately, Ken, there are other folks to buy used sails from. Back when I was a very fiscallly challenged sailor, I had great success buying used sails from Bacon in Annapolis, even though I was in SF. They were far from useless, in fact I won some races with them (it was admittedly a less competitive era and venue).

So, I surely wouldn't buy your crapped out main, but buying a lightly used sail for less than 1/3 new cost seems like it is still a good deal.

You should stick to subjects in which you actually have knowledge or/and experience.

Jim

I'd say, cruising around for four seasons with used sails, followed by having the jibs re-cut and sewn by North Sails, then replacing the main sail with a new (and not as expensive as most people think) sail, then being able to compare first hand between the reworked jibs and the new main sail, would actually suggest that I have some first-hand, recent "knowledge or/and experience" with the subject matter.

When was the last time you purchased a new sail and was able to make a comparison between new and old?

Four weeks ago for us.