Is Alberg the best production designer ever?

[Chris8120]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I was wondering about gas vs diesel. What are the pros for gas, if any? I mean, surely they had a reason to go with gas on this boat?

And hmmm, you're right. They can only say no.

They are often much quieter than diesels. That can make big difference when you just want to relax and have a conversation in the cockpit while motoring. Of course this really only pertains to older boats, since newer ones have contained diesel noise to near nothing.

[CarlF]

Practical Sailor - who takes no advertising - does excellent reviews. As pat of this they talk to many owners. Here's one on the Cape Dory 25. I expect you'd find the 27 and 28 very similar in construction. https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...ory-25-and-25d

And Cape Dory has an excellent owners association where you can learn a lot from current owners
Welcome to the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association's Home Page

You'll find Cape Dory's prices tend to be at a slight premium. But they also fetch that premium when you go to sell it. They are quite in demand.

[Greg K]

There's a lot of negative and unfounded claptrap spouted about full keel boats. It's utter nonsense. One only need to look at the Marion - Bermuda historical race records to see that full keel boats have always done well in open ocean races. These older, modified full keel designs by Alberg, Alden, Luders, Mason and many others are some of the most seaworthy and seakindly boats ever made. And they are truly beautiful.


For what it's worth, my advice is to trust your eye and your gut feeling. Also, do your research and learn to crunch the numbers... Sail/Displ and Ballast/Displ and LOA/LWL ratios. There is quite a bit of variance in these ratios amongst the traditional designs, so try to stay away from the extremes. And don't listen to anyone who tells you that full keel designs are dead. The oceans haven't changed. The only thing that's changed is that the priorities for both buyers and mass manufacturers are no longer focused primarily on the desirable characteristics of off shore yachts.


Affinity for full keel traditional boats has nothing to do with inexperience. I liked them 40 years ago when I first started out, and I like them even more now after thousands of sea miles. A modern, flat bottomed, big ass Tupperware condo with sails will never give you the ride that these old fashioned full keelers will.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Greg K

There's a lot of negative and unfounded claptrap spouted about full keel boats. It's utter nonsense. One only need to look at the Marion - Bermuda historical race records to see that full keel boats have always done well in open ocean races. These older, modified full keel designs by Alberg, Alden, Luders, Mason and many others are some of the most seaworthy and seakindly boats ever made. And they are truly beautiful.

I really love the way my full keel Bristol 27 looks and it is very seaworthy, but it cannot compete with a fin keel boat of the same size especially one set up for racing. See examples below. Check SA/Disp, LWL, Draft, etc. I also picked a rather heavy fin keel racing boat with a good capsize screen formula #

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-27

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hawkfarm-28

That Marion - Bermuda Race appears to be setup on handicap.

The full keel boats get lots of extra time, and the faster fin keel boats owe them time.

Boat for boat, the full keel boats don't stand a chance especially as the wind goes forward of the beam.

Many older full keel boats have a short water line as compared to newer fin keel boats of the same length and they also many times will have a more shallow draft. (and less sail area)

This pretty much ruins their racing possibilities

[GordMay]

An excellent article:
“Ted Brewer reviews the ins and outs and ups and downs of keel design”
Here ➥ https://goodoldboat.com/keel-design/


Successful Sailboat Keel Types:

[gonesail]

a lot happened between the 60's and the 80's in terms of construction and materials. the Albergs are getting old. some of the late 80's and 90's Cape Dorys are in excellent condition. I ought to know .. I own one

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by laika

I bought our 27' when I was mid 20s and single with a dog. It still works great for us, but then we have not been full timing it these last few years. If I was buying something different today and going back out full time, it would be slightly larger and faster but with as good of a build quality as our Vancouver. Something like a Pacific Seacraft 37 or
Wauquiez Pretorien 35 comes to mind.

I'll check those out. Was 27' enough to live in comfortably full-time?

Originally Posted by laika

Something else to consider is if you are really just drawn to the traditional looks of the old full keelers. That could mean a lot.. looking at your boat and thinking it's beautiful and wanting to spend the time and money that it will need and deserve.

I do feel that way. Somebody asked above (apologies to whomever that was, this thread is so long) if I was going for the boat or the lifestyle, and the answer is, both. I love the look of those classic boats and I want to live on one. I'm not someone who needs a lot of creature comforts. I just want to be able to pick up my anchor and explore. I don't know where I might find myself but I want the piece of mind of knowing if I run aground I'm not going to break something important.

Originally Posted by laika

Before my advise starts wearing thin, I think the best thing I could say is to not get too bogged down in the exact boat. Find one you like with a decent reputation, do your due diligence, and then go sail and get to know it. If you do that, you can't make a bad choice.

That's the kind of advice I want to hear!

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Also, do your research and learn to crunch the numbers... Sail/Displ and Ballast/Displ and LOA/LWL ratios. There is quite a bit of variance in these ratios amongst the traditional designs, so try to stay away from the extremes.

I have not attempted to understand these numbers yet. I don't at all mind googling unless you know of a good resource that explains them for dummies?

Originally Posted by Greg K

Affinity for full keel traditional boats has nothing to do with inexperience. I liked them 40 years ago when I first started out, and I like them even more now after thousands of sea miles. A modern, flat bottomed, big ass Tupperware condo with sails will never give you the ride that these old fashioned full keelers will.

Yes, and they seem to be the best suited for the kind of sailing I'm planning to do. If I feel differently after a few years, I'll try something else. Thanks for your explanations.

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by GordMay

An excellent article:
“Ted Brewer reviews the ins and outs and ups and downs of keel design”
Here ➥ https://goodoldboat.com/keel-design/


Successful Sailboat Keel Types:

Thanks for these, Gord.

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Practical Sailor - who takes no advertising - does excellent reviews. As pat of this they talk to many owners. Here's one on the Cape Dory 25. I expect you'd find the 27 and 28 very similar in construction. https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...ory-25-and-25d

And Cape Dory has an excellent owners association where you can learn a lot from current owners
Welcome to the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association's Home Page

You'll find Cape Dory's prices tend to be at a slight premium. But they also fetch that premium when you go to sell it. They are quite in demand.

I've got my eye on a CD27. The broker is talking to the seller about arranging a viewing.

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I really love the way my full keel Bristol 27 looks and it is very seaworthy, but it cannot compete with a fin keel boat of the same size especially one set up for racing. See examples below. Check SA/Disp, LWL, Draft, etc. I also picked a rather heavy fin keel racing boat with a good capsize screen formula #

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-27

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hawkfarm-28

That Marion - Bermuda Race appears to be setup on handicap.

The full keel boats get lots of extra time, and the faster fin keel boats owe them time.

Boat for boat, the full keel boats don't stand a chance especially as the wind goes forward of the beam.

Many older full keel boats have a short water line as compared to newer fin keel boats of the same length and they also many times will have a more shallow draft. (and less sail area)

This pretty much ruins their racing possibilities

I guess Alberg designed his boats for racing, so if I got one I wouldn't be using it for its true purpose. I'll be cruising, not racing.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Greg K

There's a lot of negative and unfounded claptrap spouted about full keel boats. It's utter nonsense. One only need to look at the Marion - Bermuda historical race records to see that full keel boats have always done well in open ocean races. These older, modified full keel designs by Alberg, Alden, Luders, Mason and many others are some of the most seaworthy and seakindly boats ever made. And they are truly beautiful.

Virtually all of these offshore races are time adjusted based on the boats rating, so winning is only a comparative thing. The lighter, faster more modern design boats are often in days ahead of the older designs. Claptrap or not.

For what it's worth, my advice is to trust your eye and your gut feeling. Also, do your research and learn to crunch the numbers... Sail/Displ and Ballast/Displ and LOA/LWL ratios. There is quite a bit of variance in these ratios amongst the traditional designs, so try to stay away from the extremes. And don't listen to anyone who tells you that full keel designs are dead. The oceans haven't changed. The only thing that's changed is that the priorities for both buyers and mass manufacturers are no longer focused primarily on the desirable characteristics of off shore yachts.

Don't forget to include the modern design boats when comparing the numbers, stats like sail/Disp stand out in modern designs.

Affinity for full keel traditional boats has nothing to do with inexperience. I liked them 40 years ago when I first started out, and I like them even more now after thousands of sea miles. A modern, flat bottomed, big ass Tupperware condo with sails will never give you the ride that these old fashioned full keelers will.

Speaking of claptrap, why compare an old design to the worst example of a new design? There are many modern design production boats that are happily cruising offshore around the world.
Pretty much any well founded boat can and has been used offshore. Just because the older designs are good looking doesn't make them a superior choice. In many ways a more modern design is far superior.

I started out cruising a classic design on an Alberg 35. Owned it for 15 years. Graduated to more modern and much faster offshore boats. I'd never go back.

[GordMay]

You can use 'Carl’s Sail Calculator' to look up sailboat dimensions in a large database of boats or enter your own boat's dimensions and compare it to the others. In addition, for any boat you can calculate a set of values that will help you measure how it will perform.
Carl's Sail Calculator ➥ Sail Calculator Pro v3.54 - 3200+ boats

[Greg K]

[QUOTE=Paul L;3325362]Virtually all of these offshore races are time adjusted based on the boats rating, so winning is only a comparative thing. The lighter, faster more modern design boats are often in days ahead of the older designs. Claptrap or not.

I'm not particularly interested in racing but, just for fun, had a look at the 2005 Marion - Bermuda results. I might be mistaken in interpreting what I see, but it sure looks like Panacea, a Pilot 35 ( similar to your former A35) did quite well on elapsed ( not corrected) time in class E, as did a Bermuda 40 Mark iii. Let's not forget that the idea behind the CCA designs was to produce a dual purpose offshore racer/family cruiser. To call these boats slow, as dockhead did a few pages back, is nonsense.
https://www.marionbermuda.com/images...5/MBRClass.pdf

Don't forget to include the modern design boats when comparing the numbers, stats like sail/Disp stand out in modern designs.

I'm all for big rigs regardless of keel types or hull design. That's what reefing is for. My current boat has a 17 sail area/displ ratio which makes her a wonderful light wind sailor.

Speaking of claptrap, why compare an old design to the worst example of a new design?

Unfair of me, quite right. Agree, there are plenty of well designed fin keel boats fit for ocean duty. No doubt. But the trend in mass produced boats ( particularly as seen in the charter fleets) is not that far off from my scornful description.

[Paul L]

Greg,
You're current boat is 17 sa/disp, but that is pretty high for the typical designs being discussed in this thread. The Alberg 35 is 14.8. My current cruising boat is 18.8 and my previous cruising boat was 21 sa/disp.