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Lance Monotone · 19-01-2021, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm surprised that no one has suggested Bob Perry as one of the great cruising boat designers. His track record is right up there IMO, and he's still around to throw stones at!

And once again I'm surprised at the number of absolute newbies that have shown up lately insisting on full keel designs when they have sailed none of them. go figger...
This prejudice is pretty local to the USA... most of the world goes cruising in more modern designs. Not making any value judgement there, but noting a statistical anomaly (IMO).

Jim

I think it probably has something to do with all the YT channels featuring classic full keel boats and happy sailors who never seem to have any problems with their undersides. In one of these channels, the protagonist spends his summer earning money by fabricating new spade rudders for folks at his marina who got themselves into trouble. It just seems like an unnecessary pain point to avoid for a new sailor like me when I can easily find a boat for which losing the rudder is one of the few things I don't have to worry about. As I gain more experience I would absolutely be open to other designs. I'm definitely not dismissing spade rudders and fin keels but I haven't heard many arguments that favor them other than performance, which I'm not so interested in (at this point anyway). For me at the beginning of my sailing career, safety matters more.

I'll check out Bob Perry, ty!

Paul L · 19-01-2021, 16:58

I owned and cruised a Pearson built Alberg 35 for a lot of years. Many of the Alberg designs were built to the CCA racing rules with design elements that help beat the rule --- not to make them good offshore boats. The long overhangs meant short waterline when standing upright, all that was measured by the rule. They have little initial stability, meaning to sail them they want to be healed way over. Some are yawls with extraneous mizzen sails that were free under CCA.
Most of these boats are 30 to 50 years old. This means you have to expect all systems to be replaced by now and a fair amount of metal fatigue and corrosion in lots of places.

I've always thought the Alberg designs were really good looking boats,

Lance Monotone · 19-01-2021, 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul L

I owned and cruised a Pearson built Alberg 35 for a lot of years. Many of the Alberg designs were built to the CCA racing rules with design elements that help beat the rule --- not to make them good offshore boats. The long overhangs meant short waterline when standing upright, all that was measured by the rule. They have little initial stability, meaning to sail them they want to be healed way over. Some are yawls with extraneous mizzen sails that were free under CCA.
Most of these boats are 30 to 50 years old. This means you have to expect all systems to be replaced by now and a fair amount of metal fatigue and corrosion in lots of places.

I've always thought the Alberg designs were really good looking boats,

Interesting. Is the CD27 one of those CCA boats?

**Don C L** · 19-01-2021, 18:00

There are a few threads on the topic, but I'd recommend this one:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...sion-2930.html

The CD27 came out after the CCA rule was gone, but it retains the same kind of design characteristics.

Cyrus Safdari · 19-01-2021, 18:19

Alberg 35, Pearson 35 etc. These are all basically small variations on the Nordic Folkboat design

https://www.classicboat.co.uk/uncategorized/why-the-folkboat-is-the-most-popular-cabin-yacht-of-all-time-a-design-analysis/

**Jim Cate** · 19-01-2021, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I think it probably has something to do with all the YT channels featuring classic full keel boats and happy sailors who never seem to have any problems with their undersides. In one of these channels, the protagonist spends his summer earning money by fabricating new spade rudders for folks at his marina who got themselves into trouble. It just seems like an unnecessary pain point to avoid for a new sailor like me when I can easily find a boat for which losing the rudder is one of the few things I don't have to worry about. As I gain more experience I would absolutely be open to other designs. I'm definitely not dismissing spade rudders and fin keels but I haven't heard many arguments that favor them other than performance, which I'm not so interested in (at this point anyway). For me at the beginning of my sailing career, safety matters more.

I'll check out Bob Perry, ty!

Lance, just a word of advice from an old fart: don't confuse Utube with reality. There are thousands of fin keel detached rudder yachts actually out cruising and crossing oceans. With a protective skeg, the rudders are not particularly vulnerable, and despite the internet "wisdom", bolt on fin keels do not fail very often at all, almost never on boats that are even minimally maintained.

I've logged over 150,000 sea miles now, and every one has been in a fin keel/skeg rudder yacht. So far, no rudder failures nor keel issues. Did put two of the three cruising yachts onto coral heads with enough force to imbed lumps into the lead. Repair consisted of digging out the lumps, filling the dents with bog and repainting... all done at leisure the next time I was doing the bottom.

BTW, one of the more common rudder damage scenarios is hitting something whilst backing up. A pal of ours with a full keel Island Packet did just that while setting his anchor in the Solomons and incapacitated the boat. Had to slip it on an island in the Western Province and do jury repairs to allow him to return to Oz and make permanent repairs... his full keel didn't help him at all!

And your worry that fin keels not having advantages other than performance! What exactly else would you expect from such a design parameter? Performance is indeed what you gain, both in speed, light air capability and in maneuverability, and you will soon find that these factors are important to even a beginning sailor.

I won't pontificate further, but if you have specific questions along these lines I'm happy to start back up!

Good luck with your choice and in gaining sailing skills. It's a great life afloat.

Jim

Darin Cape Cod · 19-01-2021, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

PS, I have decided I love the Alberg 30. This one is outside my budget but it's sweeeeeet. https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/88249

I also really like the Alberg 30. I just missed a sweet one last summer before I really knew much about them. You mentioned your budget is 20K...I don't think that would be an unreasonable offer at all for this one. It's nice but it's been on the market since the end of last summer (approximately). The gasoline atomic 4 may be a turn off for many (including myself). But if you're ok with it...

Lance Monotone · 19-01-2021, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Lance, just a word of advice from an old fart: don't confuse Utube with reality. There are thousands of fin keel detached rudder yachts actually out cruising and crossing oceans. With a protective skeg, the rudders are not particularly vulnerable, and despite the internet "wisdom", bolt on fin keels do not fail very often at all, almost never on boats that are even minimally maintained.

I've logged over 150,000 sea miles now, and every one has been in a fin keel/skeg rudder yacht. So far, no rudder failures nor keel issues. Did put two of the three cruising yachts onto coral heads with enough force to imbed lumps into the lead. Repair consisted of digging out the lumps, filling the dents with bog and repainting... all done at leisure the next time I was doing the bottom.

BTW, one of the more common rudder damage scenarios is hitting something whilst backing up. A pal of ours with a full keel Island Packet did just that while setting his anchor in the Solomons and incapacitated the boat. Had to slip it on an island in the Western Province and do jury repairs to allow him to return to Oz and make permanent repairs... his full keel didn't help him at all!

And your worry that fin keels not having advantages other than performance! What exactly else would you expect from such a design parameter? Performance is indeed what you gain, both in speed, light air capability and in maneuverability, and you will soon find that these factors are important to even a beginning sailor.

I won't pontificate further, but if you have specific questions along these lines I'm happy to start back up!

Good luck with your choice and in gaining sailing skills. It's a great life afloat.

Jim

Thank you for that dose of reality and I absolutely appreciate you taking the time to talk it out. It is a truth that most of these YT sailors are starting at zero, just like me, so I'm attempting to mimic their path. Even though they don't have the knowledge you and others have, they are doing it, apparently successfully. CF is actually the first time I've spoken to anyone with any real-world experience, and I don't know what I don't know.

Another concern is I've been reading that some modern production boats are not as well-made as older ones, but without without builder or design familiarity I'm at a loss as to which to steer clear of. Perhaps materials technology makes up for brute strength, but there are sooo many boats that I need to constrain the parameters to prevent option paralysis. So, again, that means going with the boats I'm familiar with from YT. Also, I'd be happy with a skeg rudder but I haven't been seeing many at my price point, so I gave up.

To be quite honest, this life I am choosing scares the bejesus out of me, which is exactly the reason I'm doing it. I just want to do it safely. I'm certainly not challenging you or anyone here, but just explaining my choices thus far. With more experience will surely come more wisdom and someday I will doubtlessly be giving your same advice to a green sailor like myself.

Lance Monotone · 19-01-2021, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darin Cape Cod

I also really like the Alberg 30. I just missed a sweet one last summer before I really knew much about them. You mentioned your budget is 20K...I don't think that would be an unreasonable offer at all for this one. It's nice but it's been on the market since the end of last summer (approximately). The gasoline atomic 4 may be a turn off for many (including myself). But if you're ok with it...

I was wondering about gas vs diesel. What are the pros for gas, if any? I mean, surely they had a reason to go with gas on this boat?

And hmmm, you're right. They can only say no.

Jamesiv1 · 19-01-2021, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

PS, I have decided I love the Alberg 30. This one is outside my budget but it's sweeeeeet. https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/88249

I agree. That's a crazy nice boat. If I had a cool $29K laying around I would scoop it up in a heartbeat.

Paul L · 19-01-2021, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I was wondering about gas vs diesel. What are the pros for gas, if any? I mean, surely they had a reason to go with gas on this boat?

And hmmm, you're right. They can only say no.

The pro for a 35 year old, gas inboard, most likely an Atomic 4, is that you may not have to take the time to fix a fuel leak because the whole boat will go up in flames before you get to it

Seriously, a gas onboard is not all that suitable for an offshore cruising boat.

Lance Monotone · 19-01-2021, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul L

The pro for a 35 year old, gas inboard, most likely an Atomic 4, is that you may not have to take the time to fix a fuel leak because the whole boat will go up in flames before you get to it

Seriously, a gas onboard is not all that suitable for an offshore cruising boat.

That's my thought too. I guess it's a good thing I can't afford her haha.

Darin Cape Cod · 19-01-2021, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I was wondering about gas vs diesel. What are the pros for gas, if any? I mean, surely they had a reason to go with gas on this boat?

And hmmm, you're right. They can only say no.

Yeah, what Paul said. It seems some really like the atomic 4s because they're very basic and easy to work on, lot of parts available, etc. But the safety risk would worry me.

Jamesiv1 · 19-01-2021, 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darin Cape Cod

I also really like the Alberg 30. I just missed a sweet one last summer before I really knew much about them. You mentioned your budget is 20K...I don't think that would be an unreasonable offer at all for this one. It's nice but it's been on the market since the end of last summer (approximately). The gasoline atomic 4 may be a turn off for many (including myself). But if you're ok with it...

Express your love for the boat
Offer $20K
pull the Atomic 4 and sell it
Replace it with a 10 HP outboard a la James Baldwin of Atom Voyager