Is Alberg the best production designer ever?

[MrChris]

My spoonful. I chose a Colvic 27 for my first boat, also a long keel, narrower than modern boats, 40 something years old and sound and healthy. I am waiting to set off for long trip as soon as it is sensible to cross Biscay. I bought it for all the reasons same as the original post. Living on her for 6 months and running myself in, I am now convinced the original reasoning is correct. Smaller and older and simpler means MUCH cheaper in everything and a joy to single hand. The smaller space is an issue that becomes easier to live with the longer you do it.

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think you’re on a good track towards searching for a good first boat that will serve you well. Regarding those who can’t resist trying to talk you into a fin/spade boat, understand that they can’t seem to help themselves from doing that to every new sailor and what they say is usually technically correct, but there’s nothing at all wrong with starting out with an older, full keel, ruggedly built classic design as you seem inclined to do. Once you’ve sailed it for awhile and gained more confidence in your own abilities your ideas about what characteristics you like best will undoubtedly evolve and at that point you may well decide a fin/spade boat is for you. But for now, there’s nothing wrong with getting a rugged, full keel, classic boat as a starting point in your boat ownership journey.

One thing the fin/spade for everyone true believer crowd frequently leaves out of the equation for a newbie sailor is their budget. While I believe it’s true that there are a great many excellent, very safe cruising designs out there with Spade rudders, most of the good cruising ones cost more than your budget allows. There’s a lot more availability of older, strongly built, full keel boats than well engineered, strongly built fin/spade boats ‘within your budget’ so once someone becomes persuaded to start looking for a rugged, well engineered and built fin/spade boat, he realizes his budget isn’t big enough or realizes there’s little to no availability of the boat he’s been talked into at his budget level so gets discouraged and sometimes gives up altogether. So I hate to see this syndrome of well intended experienced sailors trying to persuade new sailors into buying racing flats before they can even crawl.

I started with a full keel boat and since then have had 2 Bob Perry designed fin/skeg boats and have liked them all a lot. Even though I like my skeg protected rudders I wouldn’t reject a well built boat with a spade rudder but that’s just for me personally at my experience level. Perry is known for his fairly conservative, longer fin keels with skeg protected rudders and in his later years also designed some fin/spade boats. Most of his designs (Valiant 40 and Tayana 37 for example) have cruised extensively and were very ruggedly built so you might want to consider them, though I’m not familiar with any full keel boats that he drew. But if you take a look at the underbodies of his boats with fin keels you’ll notice that they are massively strong and have more in common with a classic full keel boat than a more modern and aggressive fin that tends to be much thinner and have a shorter chord length, and there’s absolutely no way you could break one off.

So good luck with your search and if a classic, full keeled boat is what you need at your current experience/confidence/budget level, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s true that lots of fin keeled boats will pass you and be more maneuverable in marinas but it’s not like all full keel boats are real dogs either. The good ones, like the Cape Dory’s and Bristols and Hinckleys, and some others that have been mentioned sail very well and will give you the confidence to get out there and begin laying that foundation of experience that will make you into a competent cruising sailor.

One characteristic of these older designs is that they are narrower and have deeper hulls than more modern canoe body designs. This makes them tender at first but once they get to a certain level of heel, they harden up and are very seaworthy snd safe. A more modern design has more initial stability due to its shape, but its stability in extreme conditions may be no greater (or even less) than the older design.

Thank you for taking the time to put all that down. Starting with an inexpensive but sturdy full keel and figuring out where I want to go from there is my strategy. The pressure here was pretty intense but I am unbowed. Obviously a lot of passion for each type. Full keel is PC and Fin and Spade is Mac but you can check your email on either. Thanks again!

[searoom]

The Clovic 27 reminds me of the C&C’s. Classic hull with T cockpit including perforated aluminum toe rails.
Nice looking boat.

[laika]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

I'll check those out. Was 27' enough to live in comfortably full-time?

Yeah, it was for me. Though a boat's displacement can be a better measure of size and comfort than LOA. My V27 is 9000lbs, so pretty big within the footprint of a 27' hull. Also like a lot of others you're looking at, it was "purpose built" for long term living and long distance cruising. The only thing I wish we had now that we don't is an enclosed head.. as it stands, it shares space with us in our enclosed V-berth, about two feet away from where we sleep (praised be the wonders of an odorless composting toilet).

The saying that all boats are compromises is especially true the smaller you go, but it's more a matter of what you can accept and what you get used to. I've met young families living happily on 25', vs couples ready to kill each other on large catamarans.

My personal approach was to go small and quality. I had a $30k purchase budget, and I chose a really nice 27' boat that fit that budget. If I had had $50k, I might've bought a really nice Vancouver 32 instead. No reason to be a masochist

[thomm225]

$30K will actually buy a lot of boat these days as folks continue to sell.

I just saw this one today down in Oriental, NC.

https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/...n-323-7708799/

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think you’re on a good track towards searching for a good first boat that will serve you well. Regarding those who can’t resist trying to talk you into a fin/spade boat, understand that they can’t seem to help themselves from doing that to every new sailor and what they say is usually technically correct, but there’s nothing at all wrong with starting out with an older, full keel, ruggedly built classic design as you seem inclined to do. Once you’ve sailed it for awhile and gained more confidence in your own abilities your ideas about what characteristics you like best will undoubtedly evolve and at that point you may well decide a fin/spade boat is for you. But for now, there’s nothing wrong with getting a rugged, full keel, classic boat as a starting point in your boat ownership journey.

One thing the fin/spade for everyone true believer crowd frequently leaves out of the equation for a newbie sailor is their budget. While I believe it’s true that there are a great many excellent, very safe cruising designs out there with Spade rudders, most of the good cruising ones cost more than your budget allows. There’s a lot more availability of older, strongly built, full keel boats than well engineered, strongly built fin/spade boats ‘within your budget’ so once someone becomes persuaded to start looking for a rugged, well engineered and built fin/spade boat, he realizes his budget isn’t big enough or realizes there’s little to no availability of the boat he’s been talked into at his budget level so gets discouraged and sometimes gives up altogether. So I hate to see this syndrome of well intended experienced sailors trying to persuade new sailors into buying racing flats before they can even crawl.

I started with a full keel boat and since then have had 2 Bob Perry designed fin/skeg boats and have liked them all a lot. Even though I like my skeg protected rudders I wouldn’t reject a well built boat with a spade rudder but that’s just for me personally at my experience level. Perry is known for his fairly conservative, longer fin keels with skeg protected rudders and in his later years also designed some fin/spade boats. Most of his designs (Valiant 40 and Tayana 37 for example) have cruised extensively and were very ruggedly built so you might want to consider them, though I’m not familiar with any full keel boats that he drew. But if you take a look at the underbodies of his boats with fin keels you’ll notice that they are massively strong and have more in common with a classic full keel boat than a more modern and aggressive fin that tends to be much thinner and have a shorter chord length, and there’s absolutely no way you could break one off.

So good luck with your search and if a classic, full keeled boat is what you need at your current experience/confidence/budget level, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s true that lots of fin keeled boats will pass you and be more maneuverable in marinas but it’s not like all full keel boats are real dogs either. The good ones, like the Cape Dory’s and Bristols and Hinckleys, and some others that have been mentioned sail very well and will give you the confidence to get out there and begin laying that foundation of experience that will make you into a competent cruising sailor.

One characteristic of these older designs is that they are narrower and have deeper hulls than more modern canoe body designs. This makes them tender at first but once they get to a certain level of heel, they harden up and are very seaworthy snd safe. A more modern design has more initial stability due to its shape, but its stability in extreme conditions may be no greater (or even less) than the older design.

Hay, I resemble that remark.
The reason I usually comment on these threads is that the rationale given for why the OP is limiting their search to an old, small, full keel, skeg hung rudder .... boat for my upcoming circumnavigation with no experience because they are so safe and comfortable offshore. Something that I don't believe is true. If the OP were making these choices because they can get into a boat at low price and test the waters, that would be different.
It is certainly not meaningful to compare boats that are wildly different in price. It is also not accurate to imply that because I can afford an old classic that a more modern design is not appropriate or at times superior for the task.

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Hay, I resemble that remark.
The reason I usually comment on these threads is that the rationale given for why the OP is limiting their search to an old, small, full keel, skeg hung rudder .... boat for my upcoming circumnavigation with no experience because they are so safe and comfortable offshore. Something that I don't believe is true. If the OP were making these choices because they can get into a boat at low price and test the waters, that would be different.
It is certainly not meaningful to compare boats that are wildly different in price. It is also not accurate to imply that because I can afford an old classic that a more modern design is not appropriate or at times superior for the task.

This isn't a direct reply to anyone but in general I honestly have to say this debate has become tiresome. I may have no sailing experience but I do know how to read and research. I have decided on the design I believe would suit me best at the beginning of my sailing career for my intended use and within my budget, fully cognizant of the path I am taking. I don't need to justify my rationale. I just wanted to know how people felt about Alberg and whether his designs are all that.

I don't know why the human condition requires that we argue endlessly over arcane specs and stats about which design does this or that minor thing slightly better than another, an argument which is impossible to ever resolve because there are pros and cons with each design. That's why there are so many. At the end of the day, people have been sailing these boats successfully for decades and that's good enough for me.

Think about the children!

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

This isn't a direct reply to anyone but in general I honestly have to say this debate has become tiresome. I may have no sailing experience but I do know how to read and research. I have decided on the design I believe would suit me best at the beginning of my sailing career for my intended use and within my budget, fully cognizant of the path I am taking. I don't need to justify my rationale. I just wanted to know how people felt about Alberg and whether his designs are all that.

I don't know why the human condition requires that we argue endlessly over arcane specs and stats about which design does this or that minor thing slightly better than another, an argument which is impossible to ever resolve because there are pros and cons with each design. That's why there are so many. At the end of the day, people have been sailing these boats successfully for decades and that's good enough for me.

Think about the children!

Well I did give you solid information from 15 years of owning an Alberg design and sailing it offshore that might just not match your research or preconceived notions.

Hope you find a good deal and get cruising soon. The variety of boats that are actually out cruising pretty much demonstrates that almost any vessel can cruise,

[boatman61]

Personally... Laurent Giles..

[Lance Monotone]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Well I did give you solid information from 15 years of owning an Alberg design and sailing it offshore that might just not match your research or preconceived notions.

Hope you find a good deal and get cruising soon. The variety of boats that are actually out cruising pretty much demonstrates that almost any vessel can cruise,

Hi Paul, apologies, I wasn't directing my comment at your post, it was just the last one in line. I do appreciate your insight, as well as everyone else's. I just felt like there were some comments that were trying to sell me on something I never said I wanted - in fact, explicitly said I didn't want - and the whole thread mostly had very little to do with the question I asked. It seemed some were more concerned with winning the perennial argument about PC vs Mac than answer the question I was trying to learn more about. After the past 4 years slogging through online squabbling over really stupid political stuff, I just have very little patience for that kind of behavior, especially in an endeavor as peaceful as I want cruising to be. I'm choosing sailing to get away from the point-scoring that has become modern life. So, yeah, I'm bringing a bit of my own biases into this but hey, it was my thread and I was trying to find out something very specific. Apologies if I over-reacted. I'm just ready for peace, love and blue waters. Thanks all.

[Jim Cate]

Lance, you are relatively new here on CF, and the above reaction is fairly common in newcomers. Let it be known that here on CF there is a huge pool of knowledge and experience to be accessed. There is an even larger pool of hearsay, rumour, opinion and just plain BS. Your first learning step is to sort out which posts are in which category, and that ain't easy!

Next step is to realize that while the OP (original poster) gets the first word in, he has zero control over the path the responses take. Getting upset when things drift does no good to the OP or anyone else either. He (the OP) can nudge things back in his desired direction with pointed posts or new questions, but there will always be drifters. It is often the case that the original query is answered in the first few responses. Then comes a gang of folks who either have not read past the first post or just like to see their name in print... re-answering the question over and over. Just ignore them!

Then there will be the folks who don't answer your question but explain at length why you were wrong to ask it, why it is a silly question and why your mother dressed you funny. Ignore them, too. No use in trying to explain your position... they won't listen!

Finally, there will be some folks who like to bait the OP or other participants in the thread... trollers if you wish... and some of them are pretty vicious. If you feel that you can't just shine them on, then report the offending post using the small red triangle at the lower left corner of every post. This will alert all us long suffering moderators to your woes and we will discuss the post and if it is nasty or breaks other rules, we'll delete it and if necessary, smite the offender.

So, keep on with the questions and we'll keep on doing our best to help. Cut all of us some slack if we miss the mark, and we'll cut you some slack if your question has been answered a zillion times in the recent past (using the search engines built in to the forum helps avoid that).

It's your watch, Lance, so carry on.

Jim

[Don C L]

Quick story. Many years ago, when I started sailing out to the local islands, I was young and easily opinionated, especially by my racer friends. One day, when I sailed out the 4 and a half hours in my boat doing all of maybe a little over 5 knots, another gentleman sailed into the anchorage in what was clearly a homemade boat. He was beaming. He was ecstatic. He came over and proudly exclaimed, "It only took me 7 hours!" Now in my youthful arrogance I confess I thought to myself, "you are proud of that?" I gave him a dishonest thumbs up. But soon I realized, with some shame, I really wasn't getting it. Ever since, though I may veer off into brazen opinions, I (hope I) check myself and recall that ebullient sailor who had built his own boat and thoroughly enjoyed the sea, where he was, his creation and the 3 and a half knots he coaxed out of her.


You can't go wrong with an Alberg design. Have a great time and send photos!

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

There is an even larger pool of hearsay, rumour, opinion and just plain BS.
Jim

Please!...tell me it isn't soooo!

[thomm225]

Here is another person that had a similar idea as yours Mr. OP.......which was to buy an old affordable but seaworthy full keel sailboat, move aboard, and head South to warmer temps.

She did her first trip from Canada to Florida on a Pearson Ariel 26 then later came back to the Chesapeake Bay area and bought another full keel sailboat a Great Dane 28.

She is also an aspiring writer and has written articles for several boating related magazines to include This Old Boat and the Spin Sheet.

Here's a link to her website. It appears she has been at this now for 9 years from age 22 to 31.

Dinghy Dreams – Road to the Sea

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Lance Monotone

Hey, that's a great resource and very cool that someone took the time to make it.
I think that's one of the hardest things about sailboat shopping for a newbie. There's no resource to compare boats side by side. I wish this guy would combine his sail calculator with the images and other specs from sailboatdata.com. Anyway, thanks for sharing that Gord.

Indeed.
However, Carl Adler died on November 17, 2013. Carl’s sail Calculator is now hosted by Tom Dove, a writer and photographer, based in Annapolis.
Carl’s sail Calculator ➥ http://www.tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html
See also:
“Ted Brewer* Presents A Primer on Yacht Design”
➥ https://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html

*Brewer developed a modified full keel, with the rudder set aft and vertically in the contemporary fashion, in order to improve directional stability and handiness. Then, to reduce wetted area, the lateral plane is substantially cut away ahead of the rudder in what some have termed “the Brewer bite.”
See:
“Keel design: What’s best?” ~ by Ted Brewer
➥ https://goodoldboat.com/keel-design/