Is a 44 Bavaria suitable for sailing in rough seas?

[n13L5]

Note to my previous post (too late to edit)

It appears the list I referred to has since been removed from the linked site - within the last few days, actually!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by n13L5;2233426...

So, essentially, no need for further Bavaria details [I

not on my behalf anyway[/I], because I'm moving on to find something else, without spade rudder, with a different keel, without sail drive and one specifically known for a strong hull.

My thanks to everyone's replies, I appreciated all of them and collectively, you have saved me from wasting my time on a potentially grave mistake.

It seems that you are not only moving out from Bavaria but out of a modern designed boat. There are lots of boats designed 30/40 years ago with the characteristics you seem to want but don't forget that to have the same seaworthiness of a 10/15 year old Bavaria you will normally have to spend a lot of money upgrading an old boat.

[n13L5]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems that you are not only moving out from Bavaria but out of a modern designed boat. There are lots of boats designed 30/40 years ago with the characteristics you seem to want but don't forget that to have the same seaworthiness of a 10/15 year old Bavaria you will normally have to spend a lot of money upgrading an old boat.

@Polux Thanks for your comment!

Are you talking about the seaworthiness of decades old materials needing refreshing or the seaworthiness of having modern goodies like sonar and other electronics?

Like a sturdy boat won't help me much if I smash it into a cliff, because I couldn't see it in time kind of thing?

This 2002 Bavaria 44 was a surprise to me at $42,000, as I have never seen something that new within my price range and the length seemed just perfect for family plus a skipper, as well as for a smoother ride.

To spend more than $30-$45,000 on the initial purchase would be irresponsible for my overall situation plus the need to spend additional money for provisioning and actually traveling anywhere.

.

Maybe I need to start a more fundamental discussion on exactly how much an older boat should cost, in order to stay within my range after the upgrades you mentioned are added into that.


I realise this can't be nailed down to exact number as each boat has received a different level of upgrades over the years, but maybe a ballpark to aim for is possible. It seems I should make a new thread for that, probably.. Or maybe there's existing discussion on the forum already.

[Cavalier]

[QUOTE=n13L5;2232128]Pictures of the boat I was actually looking at:







[IMG]http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XfAAAOSw8gVX8hHb/s-l500.jpg[/]



We chartered the exact same model during Oct 2008 in Italy (West) for 3 weeks. Was a solid boat. We only encountered foul weather twice, and each time she handled well. She's wide beamed aft so tends to cork-screw to some extent when sailing off the wind in larger seas.



This experience lead us on to buy a new 2009 Bavaria Cruiser '36, that we sailed in the Norwegian Sea (all seasons) for around 2 years before selling (as we liquidated everything Norwegian) to move to the US. Not directly comparable, but we thoroughly enjoyed the '36. It suffered a little weatherhelm due to its relatively high topsides, but typically this was exacerbated by my own inattention to correct sail balance when caught-out by minor squalls.

Sent from mTalk

[Polux]

Originally Posted by n13L5

@Polux Thanks for your comment!

Are you talking about the seaworthiness of decades old materials needing refreshing or the seaworthiness of having modern goodies like sonar and other electronics?

Like a sturdy boat won't help me much if I smash it into a cliff, because I couldn't see it in time kind of thing?

This 2002 Bavaria 44 was a surprise to me at $42,000, as I have never seen something that new within my price range and the length seemed just perfect for family plus a skipper, as well as for a smoother ride.

To spend more than $30-$45,000 on the initial purchase would be irresponsible for my overall situation plus the need to spend additional money for provisioning and actually traveling anywhere.

.

Maybe I need to start a more fundamental discussion on exactly how much an older boat should cost, in order to stay within my range after the upgrades you mentioned are added into that.


I realise this can't be nailed down to exact number as each boat has received a different level of upgrades over the years, but maybe a ballpark to aim for is possible. It seems I should make a new thread for that, probably.. Or maybe there's existing discussion on the forum already.

A 2002 Bavaria 44 doesn't cost 42 000 USD. The smallest price I found was 68 000 USD on a boat without VAT paid and certainly in not very good shape, due to the difference in price to other charter boats without VAT paid, that come for about 75/85 000 USD. A boat with VAT paid costs around 90/100 000USD.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/Sai...cer/Bavaria/44

A boat selling with that difference of price or is a scam or it has some kind of big problem.

Cruising boats are very complex machines with lots of equipment and the hull costs only about 1/3 of the boat price. Even assuming that the hull is in perfect conditions all other equipment has a smaller life span. Think for example on all metal parts that are subjected to strain, chainplates, keel bolts and so on: on a boat with 30 years they should be replaced, it would be time to replace for the second time the rig (assuming that the previous owner had done that once) and it is time to dismount the mast and look carefully at it to see if there are not serious corrosion problems. You have to dismount and look at the rudder that probably would need work.

Then there is the electronics, the refrigerator engines, the electrical system, the pumps, the engine, the water tubes and so on. There is a reason why old boats are cheap.

If you do yourself all the work it can end up cheaper than a newer boat, but you have to have the time and take provision about the money needed to do it. You end up also with an older design that hardly will worth the extra money you invested on it in what regards resale value. Only interesting if you are sure you will stay with that boat for life and have some kind of crush regarding it. When you love something, then all is justified ;-)

On a boat that is only sailed locally there is no problem in having an old boat not in perfect shape: If something happens there would be help around. But you talk about a boat able to face storms and to be sailed offshore. For that you need a boat in perfect maintenance conditions and that does not come cheap.

[robert sailor]

I have to agree with Polux that a good offshore boat is not cheap. I also agree with him when he points out that other than the hull and deck everything else has a finite lifespan. If you buy a boat that is only a few years old and it's been well looked after you can expect to get a number of years out of most of the equipment. If you coastal sail it will be far cheaper than offshore sailing. Sailing offshore can put years of wear and tear on a boat on a single crossing. I always leave on a crossing with everything I'm aware of in good nick but by the time I arrive at my destination I have a long list of repairs. If you buy a boat that is 15 years old with original equipment and take it offshore you will have many surprises. If you buy a boat that is 25 years old but it's been refitted to a high level then it will be a better choice than the 15 year old original boat everything else being equal. There are no real great offshore bargin out there. If you want a good boat you have to pay for it. I also agree with Polux when he suggests that a cheaper boat only sailed locally can make some sense financially. And finally, no boat is an investment, they are emotional purchases only...which is OK. .we do get married don't we.

[double u]

bav 44 ca 95/96, first hand seen:
charter company one pontoon down took delivery of 4 bav 44s
after first charter all 4 were hauled & keels lowered some:
apparently the top of the keel (cast iron) was uneven & instead of evening it out with hard filler the yard had just put flexible sealant & bolted the keels on - result: they were moving. remedy was quick - remove sealant, put epoxi filler & bolt on again, but still...

[ALAIN97133]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems that you are not only moving out from Bavaria but out of a modern designed boat. There are lots of boats designed 30/40 years ago with the characteristics you seem to want but don't forget that to have the same seaworthiness of a 10/15 year old Bavaria you will normally have to spend a lot of money upgrading an old boat.

Yes .... and no Do you remember when osmosis problems started to show up for exemple ? Several, otherwise very good sailboats such as Valiant, are plagued with that problem. On the other hand, I wouldn't buy a sailboat pre-1980**. In some cases, you have to change the standing rigging which is here a $2000 job for a 34' sloop, & you should have an engine overall, especially with former charter sailboats used extensively by incompetent drunken landlubbers who only use the sails for their Facebook pictures
**With some notable exceptions such as Swan, Hallberg Rassy, Hinckley, Alden, Wauquiez etc ...
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/55066
http://www.passionforpaint.co.uk/pdf/osmosis3.pdf

[double u]

...anybody considering buying a really "old" (15years plus) fibreglass boat & all those "those-old-boats-were-really-strong-because-they-didn't-know-yet-how-strong-fg-is-&-overbuilt-them"-adherents would do well reading
https://www.amazon.com/Fibreglass-Bo...ugo+du+plessis & what the author has to say about those boats built in the "golden age"...

[daletournier]

A boat is more than a hull! What about the 30 year old black iron tanks that you need to rip up the interior to get to? Wiring? plumbing, the perkins that been rebuilt several times etc etc. Nothing wrong with the pedigree old boats as long as someone else as spent a small fortune making then not so old. Often paying nothing for an old boat is still to much.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[double u]

100% agree!
very puzzling some of the asking-prices of old ("vintage"...) US fibreglassboats!

[ALAIN97133]

Originally Posted by double u

...anybody considering buying a really "old" (15years plus) fibreglass boat & all those "those-old-boats-were-really-strong-because-they-didn't-know-yet-how-strong-fg-is-&-overbuilt-them"-adherents would do well reading
https://www.amazon.com/Fibreglass-Bo...ugo+du+plessis & what the author has to say about those boats built in the "golden age"...

The problem with "modern" sailboats is that their production methods never take into consideration how easy it will be to repair something. For exemple I flew to Washington NC to purchase a C&C 38; once there I discovered that the engine needed to be rebuilt in part & that it must be removed from the sailboat to do so... Well, you had to disassemble the galley aft partition to remove the 3 cylinders Volvo Most if not all shipyards build the inside on an open hull & then glue & bolt the deck... Good luck if your have to replace a wire for exemple going from the pulpit lights to the electric panel next to the chart table all the way aft... Cheers !

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by n13L5

Thank you very much for adding your experience with a Bavaria boat! I for one don't know enough to criticise anyone's opinion. But I'm pretty good at reading Amazon reviews and detecting each reviewer's personal bias between the lines, which makes it relatively easy for me to know what points apply to what I want from the product.

One question I do have: Was this Bavaria made before or after 2004?

There's no perfect product and so there will also be no perfect boat. But I'd prefer to sail in a sturdy boat with an ugly interior over a flimsy boat with a peachy interior. Simple self preservation ;-)

Overall, I have crossed Bavaria off my list, in spite of the great guy that successfully took the north passage with it.

Partly this is also thanks to a great sailing blog I found here: The Essential Features of All Good Cruising Sailboats

He's got a 6 page list (when printed out) of boats that he considers good for cruising from a huge variety of builders.

Obviously, this list will conform to his personal biases and be limited to the boats he has come in contact with. But he does write in detail what his reasoning is for what he considers good and its obvious he spent his entire life focused on boats and sailing.

Even if his recommendations reflect his point of view, which may not be shared by everyone else, its a hell of a lot better than I could do. So I've started to look specifically for the boats he lists, depending on the attributes and problems he wrote in short form for each.

.


Lastly, I realise, I can't start a thread here for every different type of boat I find on boats.com and in other places. It would amount to 3 pages of question posts from me, completely blocking out the sun ;-)

So I will limit my questions to boats I'm getting really serious about.

Which this one was, since it LOOKED SO NICE, was fairly new (2002) AND I could afford it.

And I guess made in Germany is not a guarantee for quality.


.


So, essentially, no need for further Bavaria details not on my behalf anyway, because I'm moving on to find something else, without spade rudder, with a different keel, without sail drive and one specifically known for a strong hull.

My thanks to everyone's replies, I appreciated all of them and collectively, you have saved me from wasting my time on a potentially grave mistake.

You know. go for it if you get a green light from a pro surveyor, Bavaria made the same mistake as other EU production boats in the frame time where they try to save cost production and made mistakes, early Bavarias are tough boats , really well put together, then they swicht to some awful construction practiques and now they back to the old school previous practiques in some points. That price point sounds really cheap but in the other hand the Bavaria sold in our yard , the same 44 model, from a previous owner who die and let the boat rest for 5 years in a boatyard until a young couple from NZ revive and put in order condition for almost the same money as the one you are looking for,,,, they are happy sailing between Oz and NZ this days and they have a wonderful Pacific croosing.

So far so good look fror troubles , if the boat is sound in all the aspects is a bargain....

[double u]

"...early Bavarias are tough boats , really well put together..."
the WORST boats I've ever been on, bar none, were 80ies Bavs!

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by double u

"...early Bavarias are tough boats , really well put together..."
the WORST boats I've ever been on, bar none, were 80ies Bavs!

Well im sorry if you have bad times in the 80,s , mine is completely diferent..