Is a 44 Bavaria suitable for sailing in rough seas?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by neilpride

No doubt can be a good candidate, but and I don't want to be the black pea in this thread , check everything really well like Boatie say, structural and all.
This one fail like that in the picture in regular tradewinds , no storm involved or collision.

My shroud connections down below are three times the diameter of that one, and I only have a 34 foot boat. Sheez......

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Idylles15.5

ok, so I haven't been on in awhile, because every time i give my professional opinion, and yes I'm a shipwright and that includes every aspect of marine carpentry, fiberglass , paint, structural bulkheads, teak deck, you name it. I just worked on one of these Bavarias this season. They use a swivel rudder ball assembly for the spade rudder. They lock up ans seize up between the aluminum and the plastic swivel ball. While replacing one of these and re assembly the quadrants steering linkage, the sun came out, and I could almost see through the fiberglass around the base of the rudder shaft. I couldn't believe it, especially on the load side of a spade rudder where there are heavy hydro forces on the leading edge. I immediately told the owner and proceeded to add multiple layers of alternating two ounce mat and bi weave. I can't imagine this was a one time lay up screw up. They call them the chevys of sailboats, according to the owner not me, because they are fairly priced, and yes I thought the interior was well put together for the price point, but they definitely offset the cost of the interior in the structural aspect of the hull. maybe some owners got lucky, but if the glass was that thin at a known load bearing point, I can only imagine how thin the glass is in other places. I imagine if I has sanded the bottom paint off the sun would light up the whole bottom. So there is some fact to back up a point of view. I'm sure I'll get attacked as usual by some know it all, or questioned about my professionalism, that's why I don't post much anymore, but trust me, I am very professional and take pride in my work.

Thanks for sharing yourreal life experience. This is the sort of information that helps people make decisions.

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[daletournier]

Originally Posted by ingrid75

AquaGeo, I read their gleeful boat advertisements and new boat "reviews" back when the Bavaria brand was wa first launched. The ones that gushed about how fast a Bavaria was built and how that speed saved the customer money. Then, after the keels started falling off of Bavarias and the company responded by putting bigger washers on the keel bolts, they backed off on expounding on how fast the boats were built and concentrated on how precise the robots put them together. Read the older sailing magazines, you'll see. If you feel good about sailing a Bavaria, then go for it. I just prefer more traditionally built boats.

How many keels fell off? A keel fell of a oyster not that long ago, are they also no good? I know people that lost their rudder on a Malo 46 and lost the boat ,are all Malos no good?
Im not defending Barvarias as I dont know enough about them, what i am questioning is the endless stream of opinions regarding modern production boats that seem to be backed by nothing.
Its easy to have an opinion not that easy to have one based on experience and education.

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[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by daletournier

How many keels fell off? A keel fell of a oyster not that long ago, are they also no good? I know people that lost their rudder on a Malo 46 and lost the boat ,are all Malos no good?
Im not defending Barvarias as I dont know enough about them, what i am questioning is the endless stream of opinions regarding modern production boats that seem to be backed by nothing.
Its easy to have an opinion not that easy to have one based on experience and education.

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Dale, here are two quasi-objective points:

Bavaria did have one model with keel issues. IIRC, it was called a Match 38,or something like that. It was designed for one-design racing on the match racing circuit of the day. Definitely not part of their cruising fleet. They did have some keel separation issues on several boats. I believe that the whole production run was recalled and a fix provided, but that memory is a bit fuzzy. It got a lot of press at the time.

I was in the Yamba marina a few years ago when a upper 30's foot Bavaria cruising type boat came in under tow with steering failure. The local shipwright (who I knew) said something like "oh no, not another one", and went straight to the problem... something with the cable steering. Even in that out of the way location, he had encountered the issue several times previously.

Is this a reason to condemn the whole Bavaria line? Not in my opinion, but it should be a warning that they have had flaws, some of which stem from marginal design, and that potential buyers should be aware. These boats were from some years back, and likely do not reflect directly upon current production.

Jim

[Idylles15.5]

Dale I'll just tell you this, from working on the old and the new. I would much rather have a boat built in the 80's when they lay'd them up thick, then the new ones they build now for Sir Frances Drake crossings in the BVI. They try to make them wide to keep up with the room of the cats, they have to at the same time keep the weight down for all the extra goodies, and I don't care what they say about the new technology. I put through hulls in all day. The new boats are a 1/2" thick below the water line. The old ones, meant for sailing, not motoring around for sun downers like the new ones are, are built far better as far as i'm concerned. Find an 80's boat in good shape, install some modern goodies and save 200,000.00

[Idylles15.5]

Oh, and the old ones actually have real wood in them, not pergo cabin sole floors.

[bcboomer]

Google Bavaria failure images and you will find this link:

Heineken Regatta - interesting AWB structural failure

Interesting discussion including someone who had a tour of the Bavaria factory. This was apparently a late 90's Bavaria "46 Exclusive". The consensus seems to be that the boat had been hit on that side, resulting in failure of the grid bond.
I don't think this should discourage the purchase of a Bavaria, or any other boat built this way.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dale, here are two quasi-objective points:

Bavaria did have one model with keel issues. IIRC, it was called a Match 38,or something like that. It was designed for one-design racing on the match racing circuit of the day. Definitely not part of their cruising fleet. They did have some keel separation issues on several boats. I believe that the whole production run was recalled and a fix provided, but that memory is a bit fuzzy. It got a lot of press at the time.

I was in the Yamba marina a few years ago when a upper 30's foot Bavaria cruising type boat came in under tow with steering failure. The local shipwright (who I knew) said something like "oh no, not another one", and went straight to the problem... something with the cable steering. Even in that out of the way location, he had encountered the issue several times previously.

Is this a reason to condemn the whole Bavaria line? Not in my opinion, but it should be a warning that they have had flaws, some of which stem from marginal design, and that potential buyers should be aware. These boats were from some years back, and likely do not reflect directly upon current production.

Jim

Hi Jim, im aware of the match series problems ,and thats sort of my point. People make sweeping general comments like" when the keels started falling off" what you pointed out is much more specific and adds value to the overall discussion.

Im under no illusion that there is problems associated to cost efficient building, but most of the true story regarding production yacht qualities and capabilities gets lost in the vast noise created by people that just dont know. Pedjustices and bias's get in the way of real infomation.

Are they up to the job of crossing oceans? The answer would seem to be yes, because many do every year and safely.

Now if more real information was available such as the info provided in a previous post (glass thickness, rudder bearing area) people could start making informed decisions not only in regards to buying but also in regards to improving for intended use.

In regards to problems associated with cost cutting modern manufacturing there obviously will be some, but modern technolgy such has vacuum bagging etc and more precise machining also improves quality in some areas.

I think the story is bigger than generalized sweeping comments that some give.

People like you have points on the board and are valued contributors that provide real life information, not all are.

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[daletournier]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

Google Bavaria failure images and you will find this link:

Heineken Regatta - interesting AWB structural failure

Interesting discussion including someone who had a tour of the Bavaria factory. This was apparently a late 90's Bavaria "46 Exclusive". The consensus seems to be that the boat had been hit on that side, resulting in failure of the grid bond.
I don't think this should discourage the purchase of a Bavaria, or any other boat built this way.

Neil who shared the photo with us are you the same Neil that suggested on the Ybw thread that it looks like a previous collision might be involved?

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[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Idylles15.5

Dale I'll just tell you this, from working on the old and the new. I would much rather have a boat built in the 80's when they lay'd them up thick, then the new ones they build now for Sir Frances Drake crossings in the BVI. They try to make them wide to keep up with the room of the cats, they have to at the same time keep the weight down for all the extra goodies, and I don't care what they say about the new technology. I put through hulls in all day. The new boats are a 1/2" thick below the water line. The old ones, meant for sailing, not motoring around for sun downers like the new ones are, are built far better as far as i'm concerned. Find an 80's boat in good shape, install some modern goodies and save 200,000.00

Hi Iydlles, i understand what your saying about hulll thickness. Im not sure if modern laminate techniques provide greater strength pound for pound than traditional lay ups, literature would suggest they do, but personally i dont know.

A boat is more than a hull, my concern is that a 30 year old boat is a 30 year old boat, everything from tanks to wiring, all the components contribute to seaworthiness, it can be very expensive to make a old boat new, i do have some experience in this area. Also what role does fatigue play over the years? Are tabbed in bulkheads etc on a older boat as strong today as they were 30 years ago?
Also the older hull shape dosent cut it for me, i had a older primrose designed hull years back , i thought it was a pig ,especially down wind, thats just my opinion.
Not argueing here just questioning really.

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[neilpride]

Originally Posted by ALAIN97133

Could it be the mast top shroud puling too hard on the chain plate, itself secured to a "counter-mould" badly glued to the hull ??? Was it during the Heineken regatta in SXM (Sint Maarten) ???

Humm, is the same history i read long time ago.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ALAIN97133

Could it be the mast top shroud puling too hard on the chain plate, itself secured to a "counter-mould" badly glued to the hull ??? Was it during the Heineken regatta in SXM (Sint Maarten) ???

Probably a boat built defectively or subjected to a previous collision. I don't know of any other case where that has happened and certainly it is not a common defect on Bavarias and there are many tens of thousands out there.

I believe the boats on that series had the chainplates on the main bulkhead attached to a very thick and strong plywood structure connected to the rest of the boat structure.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ALAIN97133

Could it be the mast top shroud puling too hard on the chain plate, itself secured to a "counter-mould" badly glued to the hull ??? Was it during the Heineken regatta in SXM (Sint Maarten) ???

No, it can't. Bavaria is one of the few mass production builders that don't use "conter moulds" for the hull or keel structure.

[double u]

Bavaria Match 42 lost its keel... - Page 4 - Boat Design Forums

of course one lost keel is not significant, but lots of post in this thread are!

[n13L5]

Originally Posted by Idylles15.5

ok, so I haven't been on in awhile, because every time i give my professional opinion, and yes I'm a shipwright and that includes every aspect of marine carpentry, fiberglass , paint, structural bulkheads, teak deck, you name it. I just worked on one of these Bavarias this season. They use a swivel rudder ball assembly for the spade rudder. They lock up ans seize up between the aluminum and the plastic swivel ball. While replacing one of these and re assembly the quadrants steering linkage, the sun came out, and I could almost see through the fiberglass around the base of the rudder shaft. I couldn't believe it, especially on the load side of a spade rudder where there are heavy hydro forces on the leading edge. I immediately told the owner and proceeded to add multiple layers of alternating two ounce mat and bi weave. I can't imagine this was a one time lay up screw up. They call them the chevys of sailboats, according to the owner not me, because they are fairly priced, and yes I thought the interior was well put together for the price point, but they definitely offset the cost of the interior in the structural aspect of the hull. maybe some owners got lucky, but if the glass was that thin at a known load bearing point, I can only imagine how thin the glass is in other places. I imagine if I has sanded the bottom paint off the sun would light up the whole bottom. So there is some fact to back up a point of view. I'm sure I'll get attacked as usual by some know it all, or questioned about my professionalism, that's why I don't post much anymore, but trust me, I am very professional and take pride in my work.

Thank you very much for adding your experience with a Bavaria boat! I for one don't know enough to criticise anyone's opinion. But I'm pretty good at reading Amazon reviews and detecting each reviewer's personal bias between the lines, which makes it relatively easy for me to know what points apply to what I want from the product.

One question I do have: Was this Bavaria made before or after 2004?

There's no perfect product and so there will also be no perfect boat. But I'd prefer to sail in a sturdy boat with an ugly interior over a flimsy boat with a peachy interior. Simple self preservation ;-)

Overall, I have crossed Bavaria off my list, in spite of the great guy that successfully took the north passage with it.

Partly this is also thanks to a great sailing blog I found here: The Essential Features of All Good Cruising Sailboats

He's got a 6 page list (when printed out) of boats that he considers good for cruising from a huge variety of builders.

Obviously, this list will conform to his personal biases and be limited to the boats he has come in contact with. But he does write in detail what his reasoning is for what he considers good and its obvious he spent his entire life focused on boats and sailing.

Even if his recommendations reflect his point of view, which may not be shared by everyone else, its a hell of a lot better than I could do. So I've started to look specifically for the boats he lists, depending on the attributes and problems he wrote in short form for each.

.


Lastly, I realise, I can't start a thread here for every different type of boat I find on boats.com and in other places. It would amount to 3 pages of question posts from me, completely blocking out the sun ;-)

So I will limit my questions to boats I'm getting really serious about.

Which this one was, since it LOOKED SO NICE, was fairly new (2002) AND I could afford it.

And I guess made in Germany is not a guarantee for quality.


.


So, essentially, no need for further Bavaria details not on my behalf anyway, because I'm moving on to find something else, without spade rudder, with a different keel, without sail drive and one specifically known for a strong hull.

My thanks to everyone's replies, I appreciated all of them and collectively, you have saved me from wasting my time on a potentially grave mistake.