Is a 25 foot Vertue too small for extended cruising?

[slowshoes]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Sailing is about wanting to go than about the boat. Think most people use the boat as an excuse to quit or not go in the first place, not the reality that they don't like the cruising life.

Nicely said roverhi.

[YOLO110]

Yes indeed...

But there is also a group that fall outside 'most people'!

I think the thread above mine about 'what blue water cruiser for under 20k' is where this question is also based upon! The Vertue is indeed way more than just a 25 footer... it displaces more than most modern 32 footers and is built strongly!

But, comfort is something that is really important too... most cruising boats spend more time in port than at sea, so I take that on board so to speak!

But when at sea, I am keen to have a small boat that will look after me... but I am concerned about 'downwind rolling'! Can someone here offer some comments on this please!

Cheers,

Peter

[JPA Cate]

Jim and I used to have a boat that rolled going downwind. How we handled the situation is this:

1) lower the main to the second reef and then sheet it close to amidships. The flat sail then acts as a roll dampener.
2) pole out the genoa to windward, and the next smaller sail, without a pole, is set to leeward. The "downwind twins" (which are not true twins, of course) share the loads, and rolling is much diminished.

I guess the main idea here is once you and your good lady have decided on the boat, it will be a period of learning how to work with that particular boat, to get the most out of it, and trying out different strategies. Just remember, not all experiments work out, that's okay, that becomes part of your knowledge base.

Ann

[islander20]

I just finished a 3 week cruise up the inside passage with my girlfriend on our Cal 20 with no problems. She's pretty tough though, plenty of girls would not have been happy in those conditions. Id get what she likes, its a lot nicer having a partner on board for trips.

[Snowpetrel]

I lived aboard a 26 foot folkboat for about 5 years. Probably 2 years I had my girlfreind aboard cruising. It's definately doable and we had lots of fun. But we were young!

Eventually I wanted a bigger steel boat for antarctica. And for better payload for living aboard with all my gear. Standing headroom was a must as well...

It's amazing how well you can adapt to a small space. Infact it can seem pretty big after an arguement...

[gjordan]

I am not sure where the idea that a wine glass hull shape rolls more than (?????) type of hull came from, but my Contessa 26 didnt roll badly at all DDW in the trades. My favorite sailing was DDW with the main prevented and whatever headsail matched the wind strength, poled out. Set the windvane and enjoy. In Tahiti the round bilge owners seemed to complain about how badly their boats rolled, and of course we all had 2 foot itis. I think the Virtue is almost twice the displacement of the Contessa, so there should be no problem with carrying enough stores. Overall, I think DOJ said it right."Buy whatever boat the other half is happy with"._____Grant.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by petersuren

However, there is a good possibility that the other half may well want to join me during these exploits!

Let me see if I've got this right: there is a good possibility that your other half may well want to join you.

Have I got that right? If so, it sounds as if you need to ask her these questions, not us.

Welcome to the forum, regardless.

[YOLO110]

Yes she does... for some of it!!!

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by petersuren

Hi!

First post here! I am a regular on other non sailing forums so I am really happy to now be on my way to becoming a regular here (I hope!)

I am thinking of buying a lovely Vertue II! Plans for this yacht will be some single handed cruises to the UK Channel Islands, quite a bit of UK coastal stuff and perhaps a cruise to the Azores...

However, there is a good possibility that the other half may well want to join me during these exploits! So I am wondering should I put my 'heart 'love affair' with such a pretty long keeler aside and buy a more modern spacious and bigger boat for the same money!!!

I remember the phrase that an old salty dog mumbled to me in Australia... "the right boat for you is one that you row away from after sailing that have to then stop, turn around and admire her"

But, the heart ruling the head is perhaps not a good motto out there at sea!

Thoughts would be much appreciated!

Fair winds,

Pete.

Pete--The Virture is a sturdy little yacht of the type made famous by the early voyages of Eric and Susan Hiscock in the 1950's. To get a better sense of the yacht and it's capabilities, you might take a look at My Old Man and the Sea: A Father and Son Sail Around Cape Horn: David Hays, Daniel Hays: 9780060976965: Amazon.com: Books. David and Danial Hays completed the building of a Virtue and subsequently sailed her from New England, through the Panama Canal and down and around South America--past the Horn--and back to New England. The book's a good read and the boat a good yacht without all of the fru-fru rubish that makes so many dependent upon shore side support these daze.

FWIW...

[CPseudonym]

Originally Posted by petersuren

Yes she does... for some of it!!!

In my experience the difference between some of it and all of it is directly proportionate to how early and how much say she is allowed in the purchase decision.

Sailing is like sex. A lot of fun and even better with a partner.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by CPseudonym

Sailing is like sex. A lot of fun and even better with a partner.

and both involve rope, knots and clothing yer wouldn't usually wear.........

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by petersuren

(...)

But when at sea, I am keen to have a small boat that will look after me...

(...)

That's wrong attitude. No small boat will look after you. And few big ones would.

It is you who have to take care of the boat, and of yourself.

And then you will be, relatively, safe.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by petersuren

(...)

... but I am concerned about 'downwind rolling'! Can someone here offer some comments on this please!

(...)

Many small, wine-glass hulls, with long keel, roll downwind.

From my experience, boats that roll less than others are:
- cats,
- flat boats with max beam moved well aft (Mini-Transat).

Plenty of ballast and very low seems to roll more comfortably than less and shallow ballast.

If you plan on the UK and AZAB then not much of your sailing is going to be downwind. I would not worry.

b.

[JPA Cate]

Hello again, petersuren,

The small boat takes care of you in regards to berthing fees, not looking so daunting when hauled out to do the bottom, costs of everything from sails to blocks. There are a number of Vertues happily being sailed around in Tasmania, and one I know of on the mainland as well.

For us, the path towards a cruising lifestyle led from Jim's dream, through coastal cruising during holidays and long weekends, to a blue water trip from San Francisco to Hawaii and return to see if we liked that, and from there toward bigger boats. Some people stay happy with their original size of boat. Some don't want to cruise full time anyway. Most adopt cruising as a lifestyle only for a short time, 5-8 yrs. or so. No matter how you start, it'll evolve or unfold in its own way over time.

Why not take your good lady and go looking at seaworthy vessels in the size bracket you're thinking of? Even the process of looking at a number of different boats can firm up your thinking. A special hint: go looking at them on rainy days, makes it easier to spot leaks. Finally, get the boat you want and see how you like living with it. Keep your good lady involved, if she wants to be. Oh, yeah, and make sure she has good quality wet weather gear.

Have fun, both of you,

Ann

[Glenn.Brooks]

Iam a very biased Vertue fan, so think living aboard and cruising in a Vertue would be a wonderful experience. I own an Alberg 30, which in itself is a much "smaller" boat than the modern surfing condo design that seems to prevail these days. Downwind sailing is sort of a death roll experience with most any small boat - under 60' anyway- particularily if depending heavily on the mainsail and jyb/genoa poled out wing and wing, or horrors of cruising horrors, flying a big spinnaker. The main imparts rotational forces around the boats center of gravity, which tend to push the boat out of its intended path, hence contributing to excessive roll when dead down wind.

An earlier comment offerd the suggestion of twin downwind jybs is an excellent comment, and which in fact does result in significantly less roll than using the main. All the old time cruisers used rhis technique very effectivly. Also easing course made good from dead down wind to sail a few degrees just off the wind will eliminate excessive rolling, and increase boat speed. So I wouldnt worry ANY about dead down wind roll as a make or break criteria for deciding on the vertue. Carrying water and stores is a more important consideration. Which is doable for two people up to 8 weeks in a Vertue. Also using the focsle for properly organized gear storage alleviates cluttering up your main cabin, alleviating your concern about moving piles of gear to sleep or live below while off watch. Just dont stack piles of gear in the living areas of the boat.

The biggest thing is small boats living means just focusing on essentials, and avoiding the proverbial pack rack syndrom with unneeded sailing junk stacked end to end. Stay away from clutter and if you opt for the Vertue, enjoy the experience of sailing a boat that paved rhe way for the whole cruising lifesyle!

BTW, another good book about vertues is Humphry Barton's "Vertue XXXV", a log of the first ever small boat, non stop east to west crossing of the Atlantic, from Lymington UK, to New York in 1950. Hum talks alot about comfort aboard the vertue. There are a couple of other Vertue cruising boats available used, see also David Lewis "the Ship That Would Not Steer Due West". this is Dr. lewis's personal narrative of his round trip single handed Atlantic crossing in the 1960's, including weathering 7 gails on the return voyage between Newfoundland and Northern Scotland. In some ways a more fantastic read than Hum's book, although both are incredible voyage reports.

Hmm, I need to quit fooling around and go sell my A30 and so I can buy a Vertue!