Insurance and Surveying for Ferrocement Hulled Boats

[Moorea]

Am currently cruising Qld coast, and was wondering if anyone knows of any surveyors who will survey a ferrocement boat. Also, if anyone knows of any Insurance Co. that will insure them. Have had the run around with surveyors & Insurance Cos, seems they don't want to know about them. Anyone else had the same problem.

Eager for some feedback,

Thanks,
Graham

[Catalpa1]

We have a ferro yacht in Cairns and have ours insured through Edward William Insurance. No survey needed. Very easy, all done via e-mail. I think also try www.dgmarine.com.au. They pretty much do insurance for everything you could think of. They may be the agents for Edward William in the Southern hemisphere.

[Boracay]

I'm looking at a similar question myself. Boracay is amateur built steel, and to renew my insurance I need an out of water survey, an out of water inspection or a valuation, depending on the company.

It should be possible to get a survey done on a ferro boat. There is a construction standard, and at least a few commercial ferro boats were built and passed survey.

I'm not close to getting it done, and steel is easier than ferro, but why not ask a few insurance companies if they will take on ferro (even for third party) if you can get a survey. In particular I'd be interested to hear what Suncorp had to say.

Also ask if they have a list of acceptable surveyors.

Then approach a few surveyors and ask if they will survey ferro. If they say no I'd be very interested to hear their reasoning.

[Catalpa1]

We tried just about every insurance company we could find, only to be told the same thing ...we dont insure ferros. When asked why not, no-one could give us a straight answer

We found our yacht in Townsville and after speaking to a lot of vessel owners there, both recreational and commercial, a lot of them told us about Edward William. Even some the commercial guys were using them instead of local companies because they are so much cheaper.

[566158]

I have Red Cloud. A Sampson C-Deuce built in 1975 in New York. I am investigating NDI (Non destructive Imaging) to assist survey of my boat. I will report results.

[Stormsignal]

Originally Posted by 566158

I have Red Cloud. A Sampson C-Deuce built in 1975 in New York. I am investigating NDI (Non destructive Imaging) to assist survey of my boat. I will report results.

And the results were?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Catalpa1

We tried just about every insurance company we could find, only to be told the same thing ...we dont insure ferros. When asked why not, no-one could give us a straight answer

We found our yacht in Townsville and after speaking to a lot of vessel owners there, both recreational and commercial, a lot of them told us about Edward William. Even some the commercial guys were using them instead of local companies because they are so much cheaper.

It won't help you but I can tell you the reason why. Boats are a niche insurance market, ferros are a tiny tiny niche in that niche. You need to put some work into building actuarial tables, which is very hard with a fleet so small, have claims agents trained in evaluating claims involving ferro...all for what, a total market size of a couple hundred thousand in revenue worldwide? There's probably only room for one company in that little niche, if that. It would certainly not be reasonable to expect most companies to put the expense in to develop a capability that would bring them so little potential revenue. It is pleasantly surprising to find that even one did.

[BillKny]

Before you decide that Edward William is your savior, you might spend a few minutes and do a google search on them to get a feel for their reputation.

It seems they can offer great rates on boats nobody else will touch because they frequently don't pay claims. A great business model if you are outside the normal financial regulatory schemes.

[Fore and Aft]

BillKny is right about Edward William, a few of my customers had no idea it's another word for self insured.
I can survey a ferro yacht, but its a pointless exercise unless you have a reputable insurer to insure with. There is no guarantee on what is hidden inside the ferro is still good. Which is the number one issue with ferros, how can you really tell the condition of the mesh?
I have been watching a ferro being repaired recently and the guy would grind out and remove all the rotten steel mesh and concrete to what looked like good steel. The next day I would walk past and all that steel had started bleeding rust again. In the end he just ground and plastered all in one day. I have seen another ferro repair attempt and after there was maybe 50% of the hull left the guy called it quits. He salvaged all equipment and a digger crushed the hull into bin size pieces.
Cheers

[Stormsignal]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I have been watching a ferro being repaired recently and the guy would grind out and remove all the rotten steel mesh and concrete to what looked like good steel. The next day I would walk past and all that steel had started bleeding rust again. In the end he just ground and plastered all in one day. I have seen another ferro repair attempt and after there was maybe 50% of the hull left the guy called it quits. He salvaged all equipment and a digger crushed the hull into bin size pieces.
Cheers

Roll on anecdotal evidence.

My dad had a younger partner in a small yacht when I was a teenager.

Len built his dream yacht, a Hartley Fijian, in his back yard near Johannesburg.

4 years later he trucked it to Richards Bay and over the next 40+ years sailed it all over the world.
(We used to save all the stamps from his post cards and letters.)

Ultimately Len, a Norwegian, sailed his boat to Norway where he retired but the boat was only sold by his widow after he passed away.

The boat still sails today, some 15 years later.

[Fore and Aft]

Stormsignal a few years ago I could have taken a photo and shown five ferro yachts in a line that all had concrete cancer and were getting crushed. One was a Hartley Fijian as well. That was just one yard I visit, another yard that is tidier just trucked away a ferro yacht with cracks so bad in the hull I could put a finger in them!
That ferro yacht that couldn't stop bleeding rust I mentioned in my last post. Well when the owner was not around I went and checked out what was happening. Clearly you could see that the concrete from inside the hull had not been pushed all the way through the mesh and had never met up with the concrete being pushed through the mesh from the outside. So there was voids in the hull from new. Which is really the problem with ferro, to many amateurs built them and did a terrible job of it.
I have been on some excellent ferro yachts in NZ, some looked as good as fiberglass. The Sayer family was one excellent ferro yacht building firm in NZ.
Cheers

[Stormsignal]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Clearly you could see that the concrete from inside the hull had not been pushed all the way through the mesh and had never met up with the concrete being pushed through the mesh from the outside. So there was voids in the hull from new. Which is really the problem with ferro, to many amateurs built them and did a terrible job of it.

YOU just described the WRONG way to apply the ferrocement.

It should be pushed through from the inside only and then faired and shaped at the outside.

That said what you are essentially saying is that there are bad amateur built boats.
Not a problem unique to ferro.

Next?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Stormsignal

YOU just described the WRONG way to apply the ferrocement.

It should be pushed through from the inside only and then faired and shaped at the outside.

That said what you are essentially saying is that there are bad amateur built boats.
Not a problem unique to ferro.

Next?

What percentage of fero boats over 35' would you say are amateur built vs say fiberglass boats over 35'?

[Jim Cate]

The Sayer family was one excellent ferro yacht building firm in NZ.

Fortunately (IMO) the young Jon Sayer emigrated to Oz and started designing (and building) in nature's carbon fiber, strip planked western red cedar! I'm sure glad that our Sayer ain't ferro, even if his dad built some good ones.

Jim

[Stormsignal]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

What percentage of fero boats over 35' would you say are amateur built vs say fiberglass boats over 35'?

Do you play dodgeball this badly too?