insulation

[Meridianpssg]

Well at last we agree on one thing. That is I got very poor advice from the suppliers of Korex in NZ at a boat show in Auckland. They were giving ‘professional’ advice regarding marine insulation and our requirements were discussed in detail, why we wanted to insulate and where we were planning to venture. The only deviation to that plan is we have ended up in the high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere instead of the high latitudes of the Southern Hemisphere, Chile/Patagonia region. And yes you are correct again, this is my first single sail boat experience with professional advice on insulation and I have no desire like others you mention to experience results with a variety of insulations over several boats one might wish to own. Why would you do that?

With the guidance and help of one of NZ’s leading boat builders and the added advice from long term kiwi cruisers we are extremely happy with our choice of boat. With a displacement of 20 tons, solid GRP construction for serious offshore cruising, cutter rigged with leisure furl main sail, a 120hp Ford Lees engine with a motoring range of twelve hundred nautical miles and a water maker capable of producing 15-21 gal of fresh water per hour etc etc, we have no need, nor desire to jump ship to experience another boat model and all the teething problems one encounters setting up for long term cruising. We are truly blessed and feel we got it right first time - with good advice.
Not sure where you were heading espousing the virtues of, what in your opinion is the right choice of boat for high latitude sailing. The subject I responded to in the first instance, was to share my experience with another writer who already has an existing boat and is thinking of insulation and eventually cruising BC where we are a present. I don’t like Korex insulation – period - you don’t like my choice of comparison and now you don’t like my boat – fair enough I can live with that – but to espouse the virtues of having to have owned many boats with different insulation to qualify making remarks on this forum is ridiculous.

My word I have certainly pushed your buttons regarding all boats should be insulated. That is my opinion and I stand by it. Your remarks the majority of boats not being insulated and not needed in temperate and tropical zones is naïve. Whether you day sail or spend a few weeks aboard your vessel good insulation makes the experience more comfortable and is likely to maintain your boat in better condition when left unattended. A good insulating product like inch thick polystyrene at minimal cost weighs in at nothing at all as you are probably well aware of; on the other hand inch thick Korex?? You may well be correct, as I do not know the comparison weight of Korex plus its high cost one may well think – not necessary.
And yes we did want a boat for high latitudes cruising that is why we bought this wonderful boat and prepared if for that purpose. Our insulation is fine now as I have explained and all is well aboard. While I acknowledge the virtues of a custom built boat for high latitude sailing, there are many of us out here who have and will continue to enjoy the wonders of high latitude sailing in existing boats retrofitted for that experience.

Regarding your familiarity with prepared high latitude sandwich foam constructed boat hulls with insulation in mind I agree with you. Hope this makes you a little happier. However I should explain a little further my experience with Japanese boat cruisers. Their cruising experience would be for a maximum period of three months aboard, maybe circumnavigating Hokkaido, Honshu or Kyushi and yes a majority of them are production boats but not all. As I stated not having had any experience aboard this type of boat construction my comments were my experience with these guys and what they thought – that is all. I had always been led to believe sandwich foam construction was a good insulation – end of story – it came as a surprise to get the feedback from people on the water with this construction saying otherwise. I now have a better appreciation, in the unlikely event we were to ever own a sandwich foam constructed hull, what to look for and the expectations I could reasonable expect regarding insulation.

My comments to your last paragraph are this. Be wary of ‘professional’ advice, is that advice motivated by sales and profit or a genuine help for your long term requirements? Get a second opinion and more if possible don’t just believe the word of a ‘professional’
My experience with professional advice is at odds with your opinion that is all. I would suggest to you there are lots of single experience cruising people out there who have a lot to offer in experiences they have encountered we can all learn from.
Your negative remarks regarding your familiarity with Whiting 45 and whether they are suitable as a high latitude cruiser, without I assume having ever cruised on one is the point that makes me very cynical of professional opinions – and in this case just that – in your opinion – I would suspect the Whiting family and proud owners of this superb sailing vessel would have some remarks and advice for you that may well change your opinion.

[MidLandOne]

Meridianpssg -

You need to note that I said "very good professional advice" not just "professional advice" - there is a big difference. It is a sad fact that many people need very good professional advice as to what is or is not very good professional advice - if you follow my drift. I have spent a career sorting through for clients what is very good professional advice and what is not, including in the marine industries.

Also I should point out that you should quote me correctly, for example I made no comment that I did not like your boat as you claim I said. Perhaps you have a habit of placing the interpretations on things that you feel suit your purposes rather than suit the facts.

Cheechako -

The whole burning issue is not bunk for those plastics. In the case of a fire developing at night (say from an electrical fault) that involves the plastics, the toxic fumes will likely overcome you before you wake.

Part of the problem is that these materials can smoulder slowly but strongly emit toxic gases for a while before they suddenly burst into flame and then burn very vigorously. As an example, if you try to set alight a piece of polyurethane and try burning it (plenty used for packaging and disposable cups, etc to try with). It will generally smolder away for a while with little flame and then at some later point burst into flame.

I am away cruising at the moment with poor internet connection so not easy for me to do internet searches, but if you are interested and do a search you will find much about that.

On vessels I am usually involved with effort goes into selecting materials that resist burning or, say in the case of soft furnishings that may be subjected to dropped cigarettes, etc, underlying materials that are not self extinguishing are covered with treated fabrics that resist flame spread, generally by charring and the charring providing a barrier (quality fabrics will come with a test certificate for that if one wants it - in some cases for special fabrics a client has wanted, I have conducted informal tests of them myself). Again, you will likely find many references to the dangers of burning soft and rigid plastic foams used in domestic furnishings and how quickly the fumes can overcome people either because they are asleep or slow to evacuate the area.

I do agree with your comment that when it comes to the safety of plastic seacocks, etc, and plastic boats too , in case of fire, by the time they are involved enough to be destroyed one will be long gone off the boat.

[MidLandOne]

[quote=Meridianpssg;249150]Well at last we agree on one thing. That is I got very poor advice from the suppliers of Korex in NZ at a boat show in Auckland.[/quote]

Was that Foreman who are, as far as I know, the main NZ distributor or someone else?

If so I have not spoken to them for more than a decade as back then they had no special knowledge to add for marine applications (and did not claim any) apart from the technical properties of the products, so I have never spoken to them again - of course they may be different now.

[Meridianpssg]

If my memory serves me correctly it was Forman who advised and sold the product but it was along time ago so don’t hold me to that statement.
What a sad world we live in that professional advise has little value to the point of being misleading and that one needs to perhaps ensure its very good professional advise or better still have someone like you checking to validate it is very good professional advice
.
And therein lies the reason our world right now is in such a mess. Greed and profit has taken the place of honesty and a fair go.

Amazing what one reads into comments. You stated you are familiar with the Whiting design and went on to say “Whiting is anything close to being a good choice of boat for high latitude cruising or living aboard. You probably made a not very good choice of boat if the intention when it was purchased was high latitude cruising or living aboard in comfort”
Right or wrong, I read as a negative personal opinion from you as to our choice, and suitability of our whiting 45 as a comfortable cruiser. Maybe some very good professional advice from the Whiting designers and on the water experience in this design may change your attitude to Whiting 45 as a comfortable cruising vessel.
I was commenting on my insulating experience not boat design.

[MidLandOne]

Thanks for the feedback re the probable supplier.

You seem to have it unshakably on board that I have some dislike of the Whiting boats even though I have referred to them as "fine" boats and tried to later point out that I had never said that I did not like your boat.

So perhaps you are misreading my "is anything close to being a good choice of boat for high latitude cruising or living aboard" comment regarding the Whiting.

Maybe you are reading it as (if I turn my original words around to give a different meaning) "is anything close to being a good choice of boat for living aboard or for high latitude cruising"-

- instead of reading it as was meant that there are much better choices for high latitude cruising or (high latitude) living aboard a claim which I think is incontestable but does not mean the boat is a bad one in any way.

After all, the vast majority of boats are not designed, built and fitted out for such a service and that does not mean they are poor boats.

All boats are compromises so don't regard my comment as a criticism of the boat. For example, a boat that is a great choice for high latitude cruising or (high latitude) living aboard may (likely?) not be such a great choice for the same in the tropics.

[Celestialsailor]

I think we all have the right to our opinions here, whether they be correct or not. Certainly there are many ways of pointing out to one another where one might be going astray. I do not think harshly critiquing someones opinion is productive for this site. Having said that I truly enjoy the fountain of information here.

[Amgine]

Just wanted a slight clarification...

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

Armaflex 0.38
Korex 0.34
Rigid Polyurethane 0.020
Polystyrene (R5) 0.020

...their slightly higher conductivity...

I may not be a great mathematician, but it seems to me the numbers you quoted there show Korex is 17 times as conductive as Polyurethane/Polystyrene, and Armaflex is 19 times. As a relative measure of conductivity I would say that's more than a slight difference. It's like suggesting a sportboat capable of 85 kt per hour on the water is slightly faster than my sailboat (hull speed 5.2 kt.) In the grand scheme of things, compared to the speed of the planet and solar system, the difference may not be much, but I assure you that practically it makes all the difference in the world.

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Amgine

Just wanted a slight clarification...


I may not be a great mathematician, but it seems to me the numbers you quoted there show Korex is 17 times as conductive as Polyurethane/Polystyrene, and Armaflex is 19 times. As a relative measure of conductivity I would say that's more than a slight difference. It's like suggesting a sportboat capable of 85 kt per hour on the water is slightly faster than my sailboat (hull speed 5.2 kt.) In the grand scheme of things, compared to the speed of the planet and solar system, the difference may not be much, but I assure you that practically it makes all the difference in the world.

Actually is little different as Korex is 0.034 and Armaflex is 0.038. At lower temperatures those figures are very slightly better than that again - the aforegoing properties being at 24 and 25 degrees C respectively.

No one familiar with insulating would have been led astray but apologies to others. Maybe if someone with administrative priviledges is reading this they could modify the original post.

My only, albeit weak , excuse for the typo is I am doing this away cruising and am at the end of a very patchy and tenuous GPRS link miles from anywhere so having difficulties going back and proof reading stuff.

[Amgine]

I'm easily confused, so thanks for the clarification! It just seemed... 'off'.

(One of those people who's grown up in extreme seasonal temperature range environments, so doesn't think about insulation numbers 'cuz it's just a given.)

[MidLandOne]

Thanks GordMay for editing the figures.

Amgine - our insulation is serving the purpose of keeping the heat out of the boat at the moment . Well, should qualify that by adding that it never gets particularly hot anywhere in NZ though and frequently in summer is not warm enough .

[Amgine]

I grew up in Minnesota, USA (look at North America, put a finger in the middle of the continent, you're probably touching Minnesota.) 38 to -38 C are the usual extremes annually. Oddly enough, the houses are often very poorly insulated, though new construction is darned near airtight.

That said, my current boat hasn't any insulation. Mostly because it has a [expletives removed] frp liner.