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Old 13-09-2021, 15:46   #16
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

My previous boat was a ketch. I really loved sailing with those two masts. Lots of sail-plan versatility. Would often go to 'jib & jigger' arrangement when the winds gut feisty. Plus you have all the benefits of individually smaller sails, so easier to manage.

The Rafiki-37 is a true cutter. I really appreciate the staysail. When the wind pipes up I'll often go to reefed main and staysail. Makes it easy to manage, and stay well balanced.
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Old 13-09-2021, 17:53   #17
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

Pleffe- Thanks for helping to get me started. No better way to bend one's nautical tongue than in Danish.

Bailsout- I appreciate anyone who's perfectly content with a small boat. Honestly I love the simplicity that you get with small; I've just also been convinced that larger (at least more ballast) generally equates to more seaworthy. So for what I'm after, I kind of want a bigger boat. Not that it can't be done in a smaller boat; I just think I'll be more comfortable overall. Though who doesn't love Herreshoff lines? I presume she has a headrig? I've always wondered whether what they say about smaller ketches is true, that they're not very efficient and therefor irrelevant. It's nice to hear from someone who wouldn't trade a "small" ketch for anything. With a Herreshoff it's understandable you'd cherish her.

Mike- What was your previous boat? I'm glad to know you find her balanced with a staysail and a reefed main. Honestly that's something I was hoping to learn from all this, is whether you're satisfied with how balanced you can get your helm in fresh conditions. Because of course that's a decided benefit of a ketch, generally, is the ability to find a good balance point. I feel like not all cutters nail it, and this one is a bit lesser known, so I'm glad to have the feedback of someone who actually knows their boat. I can imagine that Newfoundland would be a challenge to liveaboard year round I'd go south if I were you And thanks for your input about what your think is the ideal keel. I suppose there's a lot to be said for adaptation. And I certainly won't say a fin keel doesn't make a good deal of sense, because it clearly does. Maybe it's a nostalgic element in me that'll be broken once I do enough tedious harbor entrances, or enough windward isles regattas to want something with better performance, but I think I probably need to learn that one the hard way, considering the lines that I'm looking for in a boat (Ie "traditional") and a fin-keel don't generally go in the same sentence. I admit I've experienced the performance advantage, though I also generally equate that performance advantage to come at a modest cost to overall seaworthiness, at least when we're talking fin with no bulb. And although with casual and measured use there's probably no reason to be set on the most seaworthy of seaworthy boats under 40', but to my mind if that's achievable, to have an ultra-seaworthy boat that won't perform as well in a regatta, at least at this point that's the tradeoff I want to err on the side of. I mean after-all, materials costs have gone up a lot over the years, and I think the age of over-building yachts that was common in the yachting boom of the 70's and early 80's is clearly behind us. And a lot of those early fin-keel boats were sketchy (Note '79 Fastnet,) so I've always been a bit biased. I'm in the market for a vintage yacht, so I figure I may as well go with a design that predates the market's predominant need for performance everything. That said, who knows in time I'll quite possibly come to agree with you, and I'll be writing on here about how at a certain point you just have to get pragmatic. I'm not quite at that point yet...
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Old 13-09-2021, 21:18   #18
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

Which boat (or neither) do you love?
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Old 13-09-2021, 21:33   #19
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

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Mike- What was your previous boat?
She was a Grampian 34; another rare boat. They only made about 50 of them as well. She was really made for coastal cruising, unlike the Rafiki which is a true bluewater boat.

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I'm glad to know you find her balanced with a staysail and a reefed main. Honestly that's something I was hoping to learn from all this, is whether you're satisfied with how balanced you can get your helm in fresh conditions.
Yes, she balances well with staysail and reefed main. Once winds get up over 30 knots the foresail is fully furled, and we run on single or double-reefed main and staysail. Easy to manage and nicely balanced. And with her displacement, she can move through the rough seas without battering the crew too much.
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Old 13-09-2021, 22:00   #20
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

The Ingrid has significantly more sail area for its weight which would explain the reputation for being faster than the Rafiki.

Sailing is an end unto itself for me so if I had to chose between them that would weigh strongly for me.
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Old 14-09-2021, 15:29   #21
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

Personally by the eyes and the numbers, I love them both. The Ingrid does indeed have more sail area, though the Rafiki most certainly has more ballast. Both suit my purposes but for slightly different reasons, and have each their specific advantages in the process.



I like the idea of modifying an Ingrid to have more functional cabin space like the Rafiki, but I also feel there's only ever going to be so much you can do, short of pulling out all the teak and starting over, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be worth the effort or expense to me.


That said, I agree sailing is and end unto itself. And we should all pursue floating our own boat, even if it's a house.


Mike I really appreciate all the info. That Grampian looks like a fun boat; do you ever miss having a ketch? I think that's one thing that's hard not to love about the full keel: the long distance comfort. It's no good if your boat makes it if your nerves don't. That's how boats get sold in Falklands and the Azores.



At any rate you've given me some encouragement that (as one might expect,) it's going to come down to my gut feeling on board each boat. Unfortunately both are on the wrong coast, so I have yet to board either. I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with either of these boats though, and I'd just learn to get along with the things about her that were less than ideal. When either makes equal sense for opposing reasons, the choice comes down to instinct. Better sleep on it and schedule a flight to see one of them soon...


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Old 14-09-2021, 22:50   #22
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

I owned a 1977 Ingrid Ketch. She sailed like she was on rails. On a trip from S.F. to Hawaii we got caught between tropical depression Douglass and tropical depression Boris. We had the jib out 20% and were doing 7+kts in 45kt winds and 20'-25' seas. A crew member reefed down the Garhaurer boom vang against my wishes while I was off watch. This overloaded the goose-neck and ripped it out of the mast, ending the trip.
We never felt at any time that we were in any kind of danger or out of control. The boat handled the seas like she was designed.
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Old 15-09-2021, 09:01   #23
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

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Originally Posted by Williwawler View Post
Mike I really appreciate all the info. That Grampian looks like a fun boat; do you ever miss having a ketch? I think that's one thing that's hard not to love about the full keel: the long distance comfort. It's no good if your boat makes it if your nerves don't. That's how boats get sold in Falklands and the Azores.
I do miss the ketch. In some ways it's an easier boat to balance because the force vectors are more obvious. I also appreciated my ketch's full aft cabin. But I wouldn't trade my Rafiki. It's a way better seaboat, and a liveaboard boat.
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Old 16-09-2021, 11:04   #24
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Re: Ingrid 38 Ketch Or Rafiki 37 Cutter: The nature of compromise

I knew and sailed with another Rafiki on the great lakes. It was a comfortable boat. I appreciated that everywhere I sat was comfortable. Not a fast boat, but I didn't think windward ability was too bad. I know he was out in some pretty garbage weather with it and it just kept going.
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