Ideal sails for Cutter rig. 130% headsail + 100% staysail?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

...Looking at our cruising mains with moderate roach, the lower aft sailcloth is providing very little lift to weather - lift happens mostly in the front third or so of the airfoil. ...

Greg

No, most of the drive of a mainsail is off the leech. The airflow at the front of the mainsail is disturbed by the mast. The drive is in the last 1/3 of the sail.

And not only does it continue to bend the wind and provide drive, the back of the sail, particularly down low, adds weather helm, which, in moderate doses, adds to the upwind ability of the boat.

The back of the main is critical.

[ghochgraf]

Education is the key. KNOW your boat and how it behaves under a variety of conditions. Then learn about sails. I just finished reading Sailmakers Apprentice. Fascinating topic and well written. I then made some modifications to my mainsail to great success. There’s a lot to a sail-more than just size.

[wingssail]

Other than being able to quickly switch sails you will gain absolutely nothing by setting this boat up as a cutter.

Upwind the boat is so close winded there is no room in the slot for a staysail (the blade will sheet 1 foot inside the shrouds already, where does a staysail go?). And tacking through a congested fore triangle is not only a PITA but it is hard on the headsail which has to sweep past the inner stay on every tack. (wear and tear).

As soon as you crack off onto a close reach the boat will not need any additional power. Your hull shape is the most easily driven of all hull shapes, it has the lowest surface area to displacement possible. In a close reach in 10 knots of wind or better you will hit hull speed or more with a 100% jib and a full main. A staysail adds you nothing. Balance is absolutely a non-issue on this boat.

On a broad reach or running you will be under-powered even with a staysail unless the wind is over 15. A spinnaker will solve that or using the genoa. Over 15 knots of wind you will fly downwind with a poled out blade and a full main (see my avatar).

Your boat will make 170 miles a day in trade wind conditions, easily, with two sails, blade and main. What could be easier? No combination however will get you to 200 miles in 24 hours; the IOR hull shape just won't average 8 knots, which is what you'd need for a 24 hour run of 200 miles.

A wind vane will make all your steering worries go away. You'll only steer for the fun of it.

Look, I've been sailing these exact kind of boats for 50 years (long before I bought one myself) and I've sailed one around the world and in over 500 races. Forget the staysail. If you get one, I guarantee you that in two years you'll not be using it. No additional benefit.

Now, you said you were finished with roller furling. OK. But if you want my advice put a 110% jib on the boat on a furler. Have a foam luff on the jib so you can put a couple of roll in it and still have a decent shape. This will extend your wind range by 5 knots in both directions and you'll never have to go on the foredeck again. That's what I'd do if I didn't have 5 racing jibs which could not be used on a furler without a recut. Seriously.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Sebastien972

Hi, I'm starting the process of having new sails made and I'm trying to make the best decision on sizes.

The headsail would be hanked-on and I was wondering if getting a 130% headsail for low to fair winds would be best. And when the wind would pick up and get rough, drop the headsail and hoist the 100% staysail. With also having the benefit of being able to have both sails up in good conditions. In very rough weather, both sails would be removed off the deck, and a storm stay sail raised.

Any issues with my plan or anything that could be done better?

P. S: I removed the furler and I'm not interested in furling sails any longer. Thanks!

I sought the expertise of Carol Hasse of Port Townsend Sails (WA) when replacing the sails on my boat for sailing the Pacific. She recommended a 115% genoa, removal of the staysail boom and reworking the control lines, some small enlargement to the staysail to allow for reefing it down, and a full batten main. I followed those recommendation and now have a 577sf genoa, 193sf staysail, and 394sf main = 1,164sf.; the boat sails very well.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MJH

I sought the expertise of Carol Hasse of Port Townsend Sails (WA) when replacing the sails on my boat for sailing the Pacific. She recommended a 115% genoa, removal of the staysail boom and reworking the control lines, some small enlargement to the staysail to allow for reefing it down, and a full batten main. I followed those recommendation and now have a 577sf genoa, 193sf staysail, and 394sf main = 1,164sf.; the boat sails very well.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Not surprising, Carol has been against staysail booms for 30 + years.

You sail combination is perfect for your boat, not for the OP's.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I thought it was very strange myself. All my previous boats have been very sensitive to sail plan balance. This one doesn't feel it whatsoever. Perhaps it's because the sails are much higher aspect, so the CE of main and jib are close together.

Or maybe the hull design. Wherever it comes from, this is one of the things I like best about this boat. Just enough helm to keep the rudder over a few degrees producing lift, and it's always just enough, unless I let her get overpowered.

The reason is that you have a fin keel and a separate rudder well aft. This gives the rudder much more power to cancel out small imbalances in the sail plan.

All fin keel spade rudder racing boats have that characteristic (even though yours has a skeg, the more the better)

[DeValency]

Indeed an interesting subject as I’m doing my own Sails modifications as I’m moving my Contest 43 cutter to Boston from St Lucia as of the late winter.

When looking to purchase a cruiser last year I was very particular on getting an original cutter and a center cockpit - not that easy to find.

Sails planning should consider the boat design, wind conditions, type of sailing (day, cruise etc) and crew — I guess each one of us here has a different set of factors.

In my case:
With the rather light summer breeze in New England and a short handed crew I’m ordering a new 100% blade yankee/staysail over the existing roller and building a self tacking arrangement in front of the mast.

The genoa (also over a furler) is going to be replaced later with a lighter material but stay 160% to maximize performance under lighter conditions.

In addition, I have an asymmetrical that will need to get a sock - again, to support short handed crew. Will consider adding a short bow sprit for easier handling.

I’ve been sailing with both Genoa and staysail at 13-18kts and measured performance in different furling ratios and realized the staysail (currently 120%) was carrying most of the power so it became my first choice at almost any condition - it’s luff is 36’ over the 60’ deck stepped mast. I achieve both maximum hull speed and easy short handed handling.

So in your boat, especially without rollers you can probably optimize performance with 130/100 head sails inventory. Also guess your boat is lighter than my healthy Dutchy lady of 13 metric tons... - see attached pic. Hope it is presented in the correct orientation....

Originally Posted by Sebastien972

Hi, I'm starting the process of having new sails made and I'm trying to make the best decision on sizes.

The headsail would be hanked-on and I was wondering if getting a 130% headsail for low to fair winds would be best. And when the wind would pick up and get rough, drop the headsail and hoist the 100% staysail. With also having the benefit of being able to have both sails up in good conditions. In very rough weather, both sails would be removed off the deck, and a storm stay sail raised.

Any issues with my plan or anything that could be done better?

P. S: I removed the furler and I'm not interested in furling sails any longer. Thanks!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Our IOR design boat sails excellently with solely mainsail, we do the anchorage sailing thing you mentioned often. We often also sail in higher winds with just a reefed mainsail. The main is a big contributor to our sail plan. In fact the main/blade combination makes a great sailboat.

OP's Choate is a classic, late design, IOR. It will perform best with a full sized main and a smaller jib, or with a full sized main and a large genoa.

Well, our 1973 designed IOR boat with its original telephone pole like Proctor mast just wouldn't go to windward under main alone. When we replaced the mast with a somewhat more modern design in 1996, we found to our surprise that now she would do much better at that task. So, I'm not at all surprised that your boat, with a MUCH slimmer mast, does well under main alone.

As you know, Fred, IOR designs morphed a whole lot over the years, and their sailing characteristics changed too. Our boat, a Franz Maas design, weighed nearly 18000 lbs as designed, and had but a 29 foot LWL... and lots of rocker, too. A considerable difference than your boat, I suspect.

In order to sail competitively she was rated with a penalty pole and carried both a light and a heavy 165% Genoa. After some years and lots of miles as a cruiser, we settled on a light 150 and a medium 130 and a #4 whose dimensions I've forgotten. And then I succumbed to old age and put a roller 135 on and added an inner stay for a small staysail/storm jib when needed. Gave up some performance, but no longer dreaded sail changes.

At any rate, I agree with your suggestions for the Choate 40... I think they are right on!

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Indeed an interesting subject as I’m doing my own Sails modifications as I’m moving my Contest 43 cutter to Boston from St Lucia as of the late winter.

When looking to purchase a cruiser last year I was very particular on getting an original cutter and a center cockpit - not that easy to find.

Sails planning should consider the boat design, wind conditions, type of sailing (day, cruise etc) and crew — I guess each one of us here has a different set of factors.

In my case:
With the rather light summer breeze in New England and a short handed crew I’m ordering a new 100% blade yankee/staysail over the existing roller and building a self tacking arrangement in front of the mast.

The genoa (also over a furler) is going to be replaced later with a lighter material but stay 160% to maximize performance under lighter conditions.

In addition, I have an asymmetrical that will need to get a sock - again, to support short handed crew. Will consider adding a short bow sprit for easier handling.

I’ve been sailing with both Genoa and staysail at 13-18kts and measured performance in different furling ratios and realized the staysail (currently 120%) was carrying most of the power so it became my first choice at almost any condition - it’s luff is 36’ over the 60’ deck stepped mast. I achieve both maximum hull speed and easy short handed handling.

So in your boat, especially without rollers you can probably optimize performance with 130/100 head sails inventory. Also guess your boat is lighter than my healthy Dutchy lady of 13 metric tons... - see attached pic. Hope it is presented in the correct orientation....

Let’s clear up some terminology for everyone on this thread.

When referring to the size of a sail carried ahead of the mast we often give it a percentage, such as 120%

However, this can be the percentage of the fore triangle area, in which case 100% is exactly the size of the fore triangle or it can the percentage that the sail’s LP is to the boat’s “J” (LP = luff perpendicular, the measurement of a sail between the luff and the clew perpendicular to the luff. “J” is the distance from the bow, or headstay attachment, to the mast), in which case 100% means the LP is equal to the “J”.

Often both numbers for a sail are considered to be the same. A 150% genoa has an LP exactly 150% of the LP and is about 150% in area too.

Where we get into trouble is when we call a staysail a 100% staysail. Obviously a sail on a mid stay cannot be 100% of the fore triangle area. Because of its shorter luff length it will be much smaller than 100%. Likewise it is not really possible have an LP that is 100% of the ”J” or it would overlap the mast several feet.

So what sailmakers and boat owners are probably doing is referring to the amount of overlap of the sail past the mast. (100% means it reaches the mast, 120% means it extends back 20% of its LP past the mast). This results in a sail which is much smaller than the number assigned to it.

For example, a staysail with a luff of 36 feet tacked 5 feet back from the bow and coming just back to the mast will be about 220sq ft in area, or about 40% of the fore triangle area on a boat with an 18’ “J” and a mast height of 60’ (540sq ft).

This is a very small sail to use without any other headsail.

If your stay is farther back the area of the staysail will be much smaller.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, our 1973 designed IOR boat with its original telephone pole like Proctor mast just wouldn't go to windward under main alone. When we replaced the mast with a somewhat more modern design in 1996, we found to our surprise that now she would do much better at that task. So, I'm not at all surprised that your boat, with a MUCH slimmer mast, does well under main alone.

As you know, Fred, IOR designs morphed a whole lot over the years, and their sailing characteristics changed too. Our boat, a Franz Maas design, weighed nearly 18000 lbs as designed, and had but a 29 foot LWL... and lots of rocker, too. A considerable difference than your boat, I suspect.

In order to sail competitively she was rated with a penalty pole and carried both a light and a heavy 165% Genoa. After some years and lots of miles as a cruiser, we settled on a light 150 and a medium 130 and a #4 whose dimensions I've forgotten. And then I succumbed to old age and put a roller 135 on and added an inner stay for a small staysail/storm jib when needed. Gave up some performance, but no longer dreaded sail changes.

At any rate, I agree with your suggestions for the Choate 40... I think they are right on!

Jim

The difference between me and you is that you got modern and I stayed with my old dinosaur.