Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Probably me, we have an ongoing love-hate relationship.

Oh not at all.....

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Probably me, we have an ongoing love-hate relationship.

Figures you'd try and take all the credit.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Oh not at all.....

Oh good. Pick me, pick me!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I lived in Southern California for over 30 years, not far from where this happened in Huntington Beach and Long Beach. The forecasts for Santa Ana winds can be quite fickle. Sometimes when they're predicted, they never materialize. Sometimes come in at double strength other times they're nothing more than a very light onshore warm breeze. I'm sure most everyone was caught off guard that day. There's no way that every one of those boat owners are going to take the ferry over to Avalon and move their boats to the other side of the island every time the Santa Ana winds are forecast, plus.... there really isn't anywhere else to anchor. The depth drops off to over 100 feet within a 100 yards or so most everywhere around the island. Another issue... there are few boat owners actually on their boats or in Avalon this time of year.... it's the off season.

Check your charts and know what you're talking about before accusing the unfortunates of poor seamanship.

Well, there just might have been a spot in Cat harbour...

Look, if Avalon is exposed to Santa Ana winds, and sometimes these winds are damn strong, and you live far away and can't take responsibility for your boat in the case of bad SA winds... then to me, leaving your boat there is questionable seamanship. Be kinda like me leaving my boat on a mooring in teh Whitsundays during cyclone season (our "off" season). Some folks do just that, and nearly every year a few come to grief. Some years a LOT have come to grief. So, even though there might be some advantage, cruising-wise, to leaving her there, we don't.

So, Ken, I have checked the charts (I've even sailed there myself) and while I "ain't an expert", I sorta know what I'm talking about... I think!

Jim

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

Interesting that all seem to look for fault in design, engineering, weather forcasters, mooring configuration, etc... whatever happened to using prudent judgement and solid mariner intelligence when it comes to keeping you and your vessel safe? Everyone seems to blame anything other than their own lack of seamanship, marine knowledge and sensible actions when it comes to the ocean. I can't believe that insurance companies would pay off under such circumstances! With weather forecasts being more accurate by the year, any prudent mariner would ensure that their anchoring/mooring position would be more than adequate to handle the weather or they should get the hell out of there and find a more sheltered anchorage or get away from land, hove to and hang on. Phil

I'm sure all here are in agreement with that...

But some seem to want to ignore what that particular 'Crash Test' revealed about the engineering and construction of that boat - as if to look at at a compact car completely crushed in an accident, but react with "But that doesn't COUNT, it's a poor example of the crash-worthiness of the vehicle, the driver was DRUNK, after all..." :-)

Too bad the photos I mentioned earlier have disappeared from the web... They showed with much greater clarity the remaining structure of the inside of the boat's bow. There was no additional layup whatsoever to be seen in the vicinity of the stem. The hollow bulbous toe rail looked very thinly constructed to my eye... One could clearly see there was no structure whatsoever to prevent - once the anchor chain jumped the roller - it from easily sawing it's way downward thru the hull...

There was one shot of the anchor roller and stem fitting lying in the sand... It almost looked like it could have been sitting in the Hunter factory, awaiting installation on a boat under construction. It did not appear to be bent, or damaged, in the slightest... Which only reinforces how poorly conceived that entire anchor platform/stem fitting really is, and what a mismatch it was for the hull and deck structure itself, that it could have torn the stem apart like that, while hardly suffering a scratch...

But again, some will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, convinced that that a gargantuan prod like this represents sound engineering in an anchor roller, and one robustly constructed to "Go The Distance..."

:-)

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I'm sure all here are in agreement with that...

But some seem to want to ignore what that particular 'Crash Test' revealed about the engineering and construction of that boat - as if to look at at a compact car completely crushed in an accident, but react with "But that doesn't COUNT, it's a poor example of the crash-worthiness of the vehicle, the driver was DRUNK, after all..." :-)

Too bad the photos I mentioned earlier have disappeared from the web... They showed with much greater clarity the remaining structure of the inside of the boat's bow. There was no additional layup whatsoever to be seen in the vicinity of the stem. The hollow bulbous toe rail looked very thinly constructed to my eye... One could clearly see there was no structure whatsoever to prevent - once the anchor chain jumped the roller - it from easily sawing it's way downward thru the hull...

There was one shot of the anchor roller and stem fitting lying in the sand... It almost looked like it could have been sitting in the Hunter factory, awaiting installation on a boat under construction. It did not appear to be bent, or damaged, in the slightest... Which only reinforces how poorly conceived that entire anchor platform/stem fitting really is, and what a mismatch it was for the hull and deck structure itself, that it could have torn the stem apart like that, while hardly suffering a scratch...

But again, some will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, convinced that that a gargantuan prod like this represents sound engineering in an anchor roller, and one robustly constructed to "Go The Distance..."

:-)

Too much logic. I predict it won't be popular here.

[smackdaddy]

Here's the bow roller of a Hunter pulling up some nasty stuff near Puerto Eden, Chile as it makes its way to Cape Horn.



They even have a full cockpit enclosure. Don't know how they managed...

Oh - and here you can see that they still haven't added that 3/16" SS plating inside the anchor locker to protect the hull from getting chewed up by a chain when they land on a beach in a hurricane.



Fools.

Nice view though...

[SimonV]

I think I am lost. Did the boat relating to this thread that sank lose its bow cleat? If it did is that what caused the sinking, or did something else cause the water ingress? The boat on the beach. Did lose its anchor roller at anchor? Did the damage to the bow happen whilst at anchor?

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Exile]

Originally Posted by SimonV

I think I am lost. Did the boat relating to this thread that sank lose its bow cleat? If it did is that what caused the sinking, or did something else cause the water ingress? The boat on the beach. Did lose its anchor roller at anchor? Did the damage to the bow happen whilst at anchor?

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

We don't yet know if the bow cleat was lost, if that's what caused the sinking, why somebody purportedly posted on Facebook that a bow cleat failure caused the sinking, or who the a**hole is.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Exile

We don't yet know if the bow cleat was lost, if that's what caused the sinking, why somebody purportedly posted on Facebook that a bow cleat failure caused the sinking, or who the a**hole is.

I think we can all surmise that last one.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by minaret

I think we can all surmise that last one.

Yes, of course, but going with the most obvious candidate eliminates all the suspense.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Here's the bow roller of a Hunter pulling up some nasty stuff near Puerto Eden, Chile as it makes its way to Cape Horn.



They even have a full cockpit enclosure. Don't know how they managed...

Oh - and here you can see that they still haven't added that 3/16" SS plating inside the anchor locker to protect the hull from getting chewed up by a chain when they land on a beach in a hurricane.



Fools.

Nice view though...

One thing Sequitur's owner found out for certain on that trip around the Horn was that his anchor winch was not up to the riqours of the conditions. (How many times did be have to repair his winch??) The weakest link generally fails first and those pictures are of a 49ft Hunter so I imagine the laminates in the bow are considerably beefier than the Hunter that ended up on the beach and quite possibly far removed from the structure of the vessel on the beach. They would need to be.

Smack, using pictures of a different vessel is misleading when you did not indicate it was a different vessel.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Exile

Yes, of course, but going with the most obvious candidate eliminates all the suspense.

It is a list too; that implies multiple candidates. I'm sure we'll never know, as that would probably break forum rules. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by minaret

It is a list too; that implies multiple candidates. I'm sure we'll never know, as that would probably break forum rules. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

You're probably right, although I figured the comment itself would have turned the lights off and was counting down along with Neil.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

That is funny!! OK I admit it I am a follower, I've tried to quit and have even gone through a 10 step program of factor tours at HR, Oyster and Contest but I still can't seem to stop my deep desire to own a Hunter. Smack is like a god to me and leads me in places I have never been, its like I can't seem to get through a day without his guidance!
I'm going to give it another try, tomorrow!!

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Actually this would make a good thread for Smack to work on. He could find pictures of all the entry level boats and their anchoring systems and then compare them with some "Blue water" boats and we could all learn something. He is the only guy that has the time and energy to do this job and I think it would be a great project. PS I already know there is another place they use fender washers!

Oh Robert, Robert, Robert - off the wagon so soon?

You know your addiction is out of control when you are not only hooked on smackdaddy threads, but actually proposing new ones.

Mark