Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Crap happens. But I don't believe Tara's boat going onto the shore had anything to do with the boat.

I already posted that my boat during Hurricane Sandy pulled a 5,000 lb mooring block off the bottom and took it for a ride with no damage at all. But I bet this doesn't count

I agree with you 100%. Living here in New England, You know as well as I do that weather comes ripping through here which doesn't agree with what was forecast just a short time earlier. Sometimes... it's just bad luck when a boat gets damaged, nothing to do with anything else.

One can be anchored anywhere and get tossed around without notice when the wind changes direction or radically increases. It's just that this phenomenon seems to be impossible to explain to some on this forum.


And sure your experience with the hurricane counts, it means you prepared your boat for the worst, the best you could like any prudent owner would and should do. You were one of the prepared individuals who also had luck on your side.

[David M]

You tie the bitter end of your mooring rode to something secure, like the base of the mast. That's how you don't lose it if your bow cleat fails.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by David M

You tie the bitter end of your mooring rode to something secure, like the base of the mast. That's how you don't lose it if your bow cleat fails.

That idea doesn't work so well on a deck stepped mast. A snubber along with a bridle and two deck cleat connection points works well.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Oh boy - now you've done it. That kind of thing only happens on Hunters and Beneteaus.

But the upmarket stuff sinks with more 'style'. A friend had a biggish Malo on a swinging mooring, the bow roller fitting welds broke allowing the mooring strop to wave around uncontrolled, wiping out the forestay and then the mast fell down

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Oh boy - now you've done it. That kind of thing only happens on Hunters and Beneteaus.

Your take away upon learning of a ripped out cleat on an HR is curious. If I was a relatively inexperienced cruiser and was preparing my 25 year-old Hunter to take my two kids to the Caribbean, and learned how difficult it can be to prepare for unexpected weather & other unforseen events, my thoughts would be "if it can happen on a heavily built HR, it could certainly happen on a lighter-built boat, and one that is now 25+ years old." I'll certainly be checking mine, even though all the deck & hull fittings on my boat are the highest quality and also significantly oversized. But the boat is now pushing 30 years old, so all bets are off. We already know -- and you've spent hours on Google to reinforce -- that anything can happen to any type of boat, so what's the big deal?

Sailorboy's experience of his Hunter cleats holding fast during Sandy speaks well for his boat and his preparation. When he mentioned how he was actually dragging a mooring around it may be that the stresses on the cleats were not as high as he may have believed. Maine Sail was kind enough to explain why this may have been so. The cleats nevertheless held so that's a good thing, as is the fact that the fender washer deal seems to be limited to Bene's. But we've also learned that the mfg.'s own specs on the bow cleats of a Hunter 33 may not even be rated for the load limits of some brands of modern 1/2" line. Who knows, maybe a Hinckley 33 shares the same cleat rating, but is your ego that sensitive that you're willing to relegate this information to the mythical "Hunter-Hater Conspiracy" and therefore disregard it?

I guess you must not realize how much your "zeal" for your personal choice of boat actually takes away from your dogged defense of your favored types of boats. Others who share your enthusiasm but aren't so personally invested are actually much more persuasive. I, for one, could care less what kind of boat others prefer, and never heard of any bashing towards Hunters or any other brand until reading forums. I guess I focus more on the character of the occupants than the boat they happen to be sitting in. The fact that there are lower end boats is both a good and a potentially bad thing, just like any other product with trade-offs. Despite your provocative antics, these threads have put these types of boats in a somewhat more positive light for me, but mainly due to the more sober info rec'd. from others who have the maturity to be more objective. This leaves me dumbfounded why you & others continue to be so uptight about any criticism.

Having said that, and like most others I'm sure (incl. the OP I bet), I don't see any connection b'twn. the unfortunate sinking of the Hunter here and a failed bow cleat, and not sure why someone would have claimed that. Maybe more info will come to light, but I would also not impugn the "credibility" of the OP for his explanation why he may have mistitled the thread the way he did.

Am I missing some history here? Do some of you guys own stock in Hunter or something? Why is this so personal?

[bluetriguy]

I thought I'd throw in a couple penny's worth of info on the Avalon wind event. I was on island the day after Christmas to board my boat (also lost but outside the harbor so it's not counted in the stats).

On Dec 26th I arrived on the 7 am ferry from Long Beach and the swells were running about 6 to 8 feet outside the harbor. The runway into the harbor is along the more southern end of the harbor with a small jetty/seawall protecting the northerly part of the harbor (where the fuel dock is normally moored). They remove the fuel dock when weather is predicted so it was not in residence and the harbor patrol was towing the last dinghy dock out to reduce the congestion in the harbor.

I watched as the rollers moved through the mooring field and crashed onto the seawall. Each Christmas I'm usually moored in this field on 'multihull row' and it's never been calm for the last 5 or so years. The 'santa ana' winds that caused this event are in term caused by air cooling over the the mountain range in the Angeles National Forest which is East of Los Angeles where you can see San Gregornio has a snow cap. The snow cap is visible from Catalina Island (27 miles from Long Beach/Los Angeles area.)

My boat 'Ceil' (31 ft 'Nicole Trimaran') has been anchored south of Avalon when not down in San Diego on/off for the last 7 years. I have a 'port captain' on the island that watches Ceil for me and he and one of the harbor patrol officers dove her mooring the last week of November for me and actually moved her to a mooring that is normally used for a 65' ferro cement tall ship. (Courage of Catalina | Join Capt Rall in finishing the newest Tall Ship!).

Ceil was tied to her mooring (mooring is still there) with a 1 inch line which is cleated to a samson post 3 feet from the bow of the boat. The mooring line wraps the samson post and then terminates with a second attachment on one of the cleats on the stbd rail. The line couldn't be terminated at the mast base as the mast is stepped on the cabin roof.

The image of Ceil off pebbly beach is here on google maps: http://goo.gl/maps/6C1Ye ( 33.342871, -118.315220 )

Ceil was anchored/moored 150 yards off 'Pebbly Beach' which is a very narrow band of 2" pebbles and then a road....

I tried to launch an inflatable but the 4 second wave period ruled that out. I then decided to suit up and swim out (3/8" wetsuit as the water is cold out there). Once out past the breakers (it's only a 20' break zone as the bottom drops to 100' pretty quickly) I swam out and boarded the boat.

The two wind speed indicators on board Ceil showed gusts (at masthead) in excess of 75mph. One is analog, the other is digital and they are on two separate anemometers.

It's actually been 'normal' to see this speed in the gust range as pebbly is at the base of a cliff which accelerates the gusts. The difference for December was the speed was sustained above 40 mph for extended times (gusting even higher) which sweeping along a 27 mile fetch can produce significant wave height.

After boarding I checked the new mooring line and made sure it was still in the firehose anti chafing where it went over the bow rollers. Everything was fine. I moved the hose cover to check that the line wasn't chafed inside and it was ok there too.

My main reason for the visit was to install a new starter on the two cyl yanmar diesel engine as the unit hard been hard starting. Due to the extreme amount of wave/swell action it was obvious that working on the engine was both unwise and physically probably not possible. The swells were between 4/5 second intervals (mixed from two directions) and moving the boat like a crazed elevator. Ceil is light weight (12,000 lbs) and bounces on the waves.

After checking the electrical systems (two battery banks, solar and wind charging) and making sure the 4 bilge pumps were clear and in working order. I decided that spending the night was without purpose. The forecast was for more of the same or worse. I've been in worse and it's no fun. I decided to abort the mission until the winds passed. I did think of moving to the harbor but after being there before knew that no work would be accomplished I made the decision to secure the boat and come back again later.

I took the 6pm ferry back to the mainland that evening and planned to return after the weather calmed. We had plans to take the boat to San Diego for the rest of the winter.

I'm attaching a brief movie of the boat taken from shore. The height of the waves in the video doesnt' show well as it's taken from the road above the seawall.. the breakers were between 6' and 8' feet on that day / time. Notice how nice the ocean looks East of the boat. The white caps were more pronounced depending on the gusts but the ocean isn't too disturbed. It's not wind but the lee shore that will get you!

Now, all the above was on 12/26. The gusts were more intermittent then. Where we were staying in LA the wind was quite fierce and many trees were felled as well.

As the weekend ended the wind picked up and was sustained for longer periods of time which resulted in much larger swells across the 30 mile or so fetch.

On the evening of 12/30 the wind was gusting higher and the sustained winds were higher resulting in much higher swells and resulting waves along the Catalina coast.

There were two other boats out on pebbly beach on each side of Ceil and both of these are gone as well. One was a 22' monohull and the other a boston whaler (16'?).

The debris field combined from all the boats including others from up and down the coast of Catalina.

Ceil was a 1967 31' Nicole trimaran. She was cold molded with 1/4" cedar wrapped around the hull in two directions and re-skinned with 8 oz glass and WestSystems epoxy... she was equipped with an inboard yanmar 2 cyl diesel, wind gen / solar panels and everything else you'd find in a small cruiser but still floated 1 1/2" above her lines. When we refitted in 2010 we pulled all the polyester fiberglass off the hull, reglued all joints in the hulls and added some bracing and water proof bulkheads between the engine compartment under the cockpit and the main cabin.

Hope this different view of the same event helps clear up what happened out there. I knew Bruce and had met Tim a couple times - both men were professionals and will be missed.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Robin3

But the upmarket stuff sinks with more 'style'. A friend had a biggish Malo on a swinging mooring, the bow roller fitting welds broke allowing the mooring strop to wave around uncontrolled, wiping out the forestay and then the mast fell down

That sucks. Et tu Malo?

[skipmac]

Hi Bluetriguy

Very sorry to hear you lost your boat. That had to be a bad day and thanks for posting the information.

Good luck going forward.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Heck just on this thread there was just a post to the effect that even with all the 1,000s of post year 2000 Hunters out there, to "their eye the cleat mounting is no good". Gee really do you have anything to support this?

Well, that is simply my OPINION, informed by my experience... You, or anyone else, is free to disagree, of course...

I happen to believe that the potential for compromising the structure of the foredeck and stem of a yacht intended for passagemaking by replacing a significant portion of said foredeck with a non-structural removable lid is a poor bit of design and engineering... As always, others are free to disagree, or believe what they wish to believe...





I also happen to believe that the ridiculous extent of the unsupported projection of the anchor roller on that particular Hunter is an exceedingly bad idea, and the massive amount of leverage exerted upon it was likely the design element most responsible for the stem/anchor roller fitting being completely torn free from this boat... Again, you are free to evaluate the visual evidence, and conclude otherwise:





Hmmm, perhaps they should have used a BRASS stem fitting, instead?

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Yet on an internet forum my boat and all the other happy Hunter owner's boats are treated as unusual. The haters refer to happy owners basically as liars and idiots because our personal first hand experience doesn't support their ACE status.

I don't know, some of you guys really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this deal... :-)

Here, perhaps this will make you feel better... Of all the boats I've "trashed" over the years on various sailing forums, the one that likely tops the list was a $1.5 million Trintella 50 I have a fair amount of time on. A beautiful boat in many respects, but the complexity was a maintenance and operational nightmare, and probably the most uncomfortable, problematic passage I've ever had to the Caribbean was aboard that boat... Go figure...

And, far and away the WORST engine access I've ever seen on a larger yacht I've run, was on this $2+million Lyman Morse Seguin 52...






On the other hand, the Hunter I referenced recently with the reefer that couldn't be opened on port tack? The access to the Yanmar on that boat was superb, I wish all boats I ran were as good...


And, quite possibly the most screwed-up fuel tank arrangement I've ever seen on any boat, was found on this otherwise lovely little Cape George Cutter I ran south last winter...





There, feel any better now?

:-)

[S/V Illusion]

Maybe we can all form our opinions based on pictures taken after a hurricane or similar storm. Our selectively post pictures of one boat builders models. Seems that's how Internet experts form opinions.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Well, that is simply my OPINION, informed by my experience... You, or anyone else, is free to disagree, of course...

I happen to believe that the potential for compromising the structure of the foredeck and stem of a yacht intended for passagemaking by replacing a significant portion of said foredeck with a non-structural removable lid is a poor bit of design and engineering... As always, others are free to disagree, or believe what they wish to believe...





I also happen to believe that the ridiculous extent of the unsupported projection of the anchor roller on that particular Hunter is an exceedingly bad idea, and the massive amount of leverage exerted upon it was likely the design element most responsible for the stem/anchor roller fitting being completely torn free from this boat... Again, you are free to evaluate the visual evidence, and conclude otherwise:





Hmmm, perhaps they should have used a BRASS stem fitting, instead?

I don't know, some of you guys really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this deal... :-)

:-)

Maybe because goofy dudes keep posting these pics of wrecked Hunters that are complete edge-cases as somehow indicative of design/build problems with these boats.

Why don't you tell the rest of the story on the above, Jon? I'll wait.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The bigger question is why the haters are so drawn to these threads with no skin in the game other that to be a hater.

These don't necessarily mean the brand gets trashed in the mind of potential buyers. For the most part the only reason I post on them is to provide a counter to the haters.

I was among the Hunter trashers and haters for years (I learned it here). Came time I wanted something better in a boat to cruise and live on. Couldn't afford a half million dollar used fancy boat, and didn't really want an old boat that I knew always had issues to deal with (seemed every one of those older boats had some common major known construction problem or a crappy layup). So I started looking at newer models and became attracted to a Hunter. So I got off forums and started doing some real research into the Hunter construction etc. I even started a thread here that ran for years before the haters finally wound it up to the point it got closed.

What I found were the facts didn't support the internet hate and that the modern Hunters were assembled very well. Yes they have some features unique to Hunter, but the guts of the boats are assembled in all the same manner that the other "better" boats are. But it doesn't matter because no matter how many Hunter owners report no problems there are always internet haters that will find some boat and use it as a reason why all Hunters are crap.

Heck just on this thread there was just a post to the effect that even with all the 1,000s of post year 2000 Hunters out there, to "their eye the cleat mounting is no good". Gee really do you have anything to support this?

My Hunter is 14 years old and in the 4 years I have had it there has been NO problems or issues with any part of the boat that Hunter made! And if the original owner had 1 it got fixed so completely that I have never seen any sign of a repair. This involves all the assembly items such as wiring and plumbing etc. on the boat. The boat suffers no flexing etc and there has never been anything to indicate the boat wasn't solid.

Yet on an internet forum my boat and all the other happy Hunter owner's boats are treated as unusual. The haters refer to happy owners basically as liars and idiots because our personal first hand experience doesn't support their ACE status.

An before you go and get yourself all worked up with some lame boat example of why I'm wrong; my position is always that not all Hunter models are a good choice for ones intended use. I would never suggest someone get a 30' Hunter and plan to cross an ocean (because I wouldn't suggest that for any 30' boat even though it is fact they can and do do it). But it is without question for anyone who is interested in anything other than being a Hunter recreational hater that there are lots of great Hunter boats out there than will do 99% (at least) of anything some boat costing 5 times as much will.

Hunter (and all other production boat) bashing is a sport. When I got into boating I read how close boaters were to each other, but you would never believe this if you read a boat forum.

One would not know you own a Hunter, Sailorboy as your tag simply suggests a sloop unless you hide that fact.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Maybe we can all form our opinions based on pictures taken after a hurricane or similar storm. Our selectively post pictures of one boat builders models. Seems that's how Internet experts form opinions.

Well, my opinions are informed by my own experience... If you believe those photos reveal the the engineering and construction of the stemhead of a yacht designed to go anywhere, we'll simply have to agree to disagree...

Can't please all of the people, all of the time, of course... Some demand to see "evidence" in support of a particular opinion or point of view, while others complain when it's produced...

:-)

To be clear, that grounding was the result of the incomprehensible actions of an idiot skipper, exercising exceedingly poor seamanship... However, that boat wound up on the beach before the recorded breeze at nearby Thimble Shoals ever topped 40 mph, and there's no denying what some of the photos taken in the aftermath revealed...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Maybe we can all form our opinions based on pictures taken after a hurricane or similar storm. Our selectively post pictures of one boat builders models. Seems that's how Internet experts form opinions.

By my count, Jon E. just criticized five different boats, only two of which were Hunters. And one of those Hunters he also praised. Of the remaining three, two were million-dollar-plus boats, and the third was a yacht reputed to be a highly regarded "bluewater" boat. With regard to the storm pics, he pointed out what -- in his OPINION -- he believed to be an engineering flaw which contributed to the demise of the anchor roller assembly in some sort of storm. As we all know, bad **** happens to all manner of boats in storms.

Is this another case of Hunter-Hater-Bashing, or do you guys have some sort of victimization complex? I can't figure out whether I've missed a lot of Hunter bashing threads or you guys are major stockholders in the company that makes Hunters.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Maybe because goofy dudes keep posting these pics of wrecked Hunters that are complete edge-cases as somehow indicative of design/build problems with these boats.

Why don't you tell the rest of the story on the above, Jon? I'll wait.

What a hypocritical thing to say just because its a Hunter. You got great joy out of posting pictures of oysters and Moody,s on the beach when you were trying to make to direct attention away from critisism . So now you get a little of your own medicine and the pill is hard to swallow.
Now a comment..the entry level boats are known to have very light anchoring structures as this is an area to save money.pictures like this are good examples of what happens when your boat is built down to a price. The good news is that owners can remove the original crap and upgrade to a more solid system which is a good idea.