Hunter 27: Blue Water Capable?

[anthony468]

I own a 2013 Marlow Hunter 27. I have heard several people make negative comments about the new Hunters and suggest that people look at the older Hunters instead. Also, I have yet to hear anyone speak to the CE Category of boats in reference to whether or not a boat is capable of going offshore.
Some of the earlier Hunter 27's were rated with a CE Category of "C". Although some boats with CE Categories of "C" have sailed around the world, they are designed for day sailing and light coastal cruising. The limits for each category are listed and are based on a number of test performed by an independent organization.
The later model Hunters and Marlow Hunters (2005 to present) have a CE Category of "B". In fact, they are rated "B6". This means that they are capable of taking six people in offshore conditions (wave heights up to over 12 feet and gale force eight winds of up 45 miles per hour). I would never take my baby into those conditions but if I had to and my skill set was right, I am told that it would be possible.
Like others have mentioned, 90% of whether or not any boat is blue water capable is the person at the helm but I am very comfortable in saying that the modern Marlow Hunter cruising sailboats are very capable and I speak from personal experience.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by anthony468

I own a 2013 Marlow Hunter 27. I have heard several people make negative comments about the new Hunters and suggest that people look at the older Hunters instead. Also, I have yet to hear anyone speak to the CE Category of boats in reference to whether or not a boat is capable of going offshore.
Some of the earlier Hunter 27's were rated with a CE Category of "C". Although some boats with CE Categories of "C" have sailed around the world, they are designed for day sailing and light coastal cruising. The limits for each category are listed and are based on a number of test performed by an independent organization.
The later model Hunters and Marlow Hunters (2005 to present) have a CE Category of "B". In fact, they are rated "B6". This means that they are capable of taking six people in offshore conditions (wave heights up to over 12 feet and gale force eight winds of up 45 miles per hour). I would never take my baby into those conditions but if I had to and my skill set was right, I am told that it would be possible.
Like others have mentioned, 90% of whether or not any boat is blue water capable is the person at the helm but I am very comfortable in saying that the modern Marlow Hunter cruising sailboats are very capable and I speak from personal experience.

I dunno if you want to believe everything you read. Does it seem like this makes any sense?

The later model Hunters and Marlow Hunters (2005 to present) have a CE Category of "B". In fact, they are rated "B6". This means that they are capable of taking six people in offshore conditions (wave heights up to over 12 feet and gale force eight winds of up 45 miles per hour).

It doesn't to me.

[anthony468]

It never ceases to amaze me when so many people make definitive statements about things that they know nothing about. Don't take my word or anyone else's...just do the research. I did my research before I bought my boat. That a boat meets the CE category for the condition in which it travels in is the law in some countries. This isn't just BS. Below please find a site with the various CE categories and what they mean. I am getting tired of all of the people asking whether or not a boat is blue water capable without doing a little simple research.
CE Certification : We Ship Boats

[anthony468]

All of the parts of a boat that has a certain CE category has to meet the requirements of that CE category. Manufacturers that sell boats in France have to put a plaque on the boat that states its CE category. For your convenience I have copied the actual CE design categories below.

A: OCEAN,
Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
B: OFFSHORE,
Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.
C: INSHORE,
Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.
D: SHELTERED WATERS,
Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0,3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

Note that the primary difference between "A" and "B" relates to the ability of an "A" category boat to go on extended voyages by being self contained. This relates to the size of the boat and its ability to carry more food and water. I only wished that I posted this earlier. Maybe it would have helped to eliminate some of the confusion.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by anthony468

All of the parts of a boat that has a certain CE category has to meet the requirements of that CE category.

The thing you are going to find is that people are just going to argue that the CE ratings are meaningless (I'm not saying it).

[anthony468]

I agree and to some degree they (the ones that understand the CE ratings and say this) may be right. The safety of the crew of a boat in blue water conditions has little to do with the structure or quality of the vessel and a lot to do with the knowledge of the crew. But, for someone to arbitrarily reject a standard because they don't agree with it is not the best way to make a decision. They have standards for aircraft like VFR and IFR. The big difference is that these are enforced by law. You cannot legally fly a VFR rated aircraft with a VFR rated pilot in IFR conditions.

[h20]

Thanks Anthony, hey I have a 35 O' day anbd wonder how I find the CE on it? I have had it in 25kts 6ft seas full sails no problem. But just don't know
if It could make it to BVI. Thanks

[leftbrainstuff]

The problem with sailboat standards is they lack validation for each make, type and configuration of vessel. This leads to opinion based discussions because little or no in service data, facts or test results are available.

Aircraft and automotive standards are legislated and mandate type verification ( have we done it ) and validation including testing to destruction and with substantial mileage or usage accumulation. This is commonly referred to as validation. ( aka have we done it RIGHT and can PROVE it )

The CE rating for recreational vessels is merely a verification that a vessel can be classified by static parameters including dimensions and equipment. It's similar to a hotel star rating.

The CE rating like a hotel rating has little to do with the end user. It's used by governments to control an industry, it's used by manufacturers for marketing and to reduce liability. A warranty that the boat will survive condition X is what buyers want. No manufacturer will provide this.

The low volume and tight margins in the industry preclude the testing and proving necessary to be able to deliver proven certification for survivability, robustness and fitness for purpose. This means we rely on empirical evidence from individual vessels. Rarely do we find statistically valid data which would allow us to normalise data and compare boat A with boat B.

So the answer to OP is maybe.

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[anthony468]

That is an excellent question H20. I noticed that manufactures don't always list the CE categories for their boats. If I were you I would try to contact the manufacturer or search the web. With that being said, most sailboats (not motor boats) over 30 feet are either rated as "B" or "A". And if that is then that shouldn't be a problem for a well maintained 35' O'Day.

[anthony468]

You are correct Leftbrainstuff as it applies to the U.S. In some countries in Europe, such as France, they require validation and a plaque stating what CE category the vessel belongs in. In the U.S. there are, basically, no requirements. So, most people walk away with the impression that there are no validation of the standards. The CE categories are backed by numerous test like the STIX for stability. They are not just a guess. I am not trying to get personal but research the CE category and then make a determination. If laws were in place in the U.S., as they are in France that restrict vessels operations on the basis of their CE category, more people would be forced to have a greater understanding of them. These are not arbitrary rules without validation. They are the law in certain parts of the world. The standards only exist because of the fact that they are requirements.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by anthony468

You are correct Leftbrainstuff as it applies to the U.S. In some countries in Europe, such as France, they require validation and a plaque stating what CE category the vessel belongs in. In the U.S. there are, basically, no requirements. So, most people walk away with the impression that there are no validation of the standards. The CE categories are backed by numerous test like the STIX for stability. They are not just a guess. I am not trying to get personal but research the CE category and then make a determination. If laws were in place in the U.S., as they are in France that restrict vessels operations on the basis of their CE category, more people would be forced to have a greater understanding of them. These are not arbitrary rules without validation. They are the law in certain parts of the world. The standards only exist because of the fact that they are requirements.

The STIX test is like the static stability test for SUVs. With SUVs there is a great deal of data which shows correlation, but not causation, between low stability and deaths. This has led to changes in design, legislation and marketing. But its just a measurement.

These laws and standards don't help users answer questions objectively about which vessel is suited for them.

Validation of a boat in use is very different from validation of the boats specification. The first is useful to an end user but expensive. The second is abstract and cheap and much loved by governments and management.

This is a discussion I've had many times in my engineering career. Testing is only useful when validated by proving.

Yachts are somewhat unique, as engineering systems, in that crew skill and redundancy are vastly more important than vessel specification.

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[anthony468]

I have worked many years as a senior software engineer. I am now a senior software architect. In as much, I do know a little about validation (just a tiny bit). And I think that your last statement was a validation of my point. I can't argue the fact that (as I said in an earlier post). The structure of the vessel is only about 10% of the equation. The quality of the crew is the other 90%.

[psic23]

Originally Posted by mrohr

Sailed with a buddy who had a new (then) Hunter 27 some 30+ years ago.We left NYC and motored into a strong outgoing tide around Sandy Hook into the Atlantic where the 10kt. breeze was opposing. Things got rather bouncy in these conditions and the concerned captian went below to see if all was in order; came bolting back up topsides and ordered the boat turned around against my protests that conditions would improve once we rounded the point and were in more open water.It seems that below decks this guy heard everything creaking and twisting and thought we were in danger of having everything come unglued! Now,my friend was some tough a$$ guy but inexperienced in salt water and now that I am reminded of this episode I find it rather humorous.
FWIW: subsequent trips in coastal waters in benign conditions worked out swimmingly (no pun) and proved worthwhile;but some grander plans died that day.

From Psic23, 6-24-16

I have owned a 1978 Hunter 27 since 1978. Original owner. I have sailed it exclusively on Lake Ontario and the St Lawrence River. Very solid well built boat.I have logged well.over 15k nautical miles in all kinds of weather and sea conditions. Not fast on the race course, but performs well in heavy wearher. Shoal draft lead keel is externally hung from the hull, never had a problem with leakage or hull integrity. Still running the original engine , Yanmar single cylinder 8hp. The engine is a gem, extremely reliable. Both engine and boat have been well cared for. In our early years my wife and I took month long trips, comfortable boat for 2 people. A little cramped when 2 kids came along.

I now single hand most of the time. Considering adding a furling main (added a furling headsail some time ago). Love the tiller, carry 2 tilet pilots. Would never consider a wheel.

Many creator comforts added, including a Bimini with cockpit enclosure, and air conditioning. I also carry a Honda 2000 generator on deck when on an extended cruise.

If an older boat is well maintained you should give it a hard look. A yacht survey is always a good idea.

As you can see I am VERY pleased with my boat.

[Gatorm]

OK, so from a newbie on sailing, who does make a really good 27' boat? I like the looks and practicality of the 23-26' newer style Hunters but I see lots of complaining about how they sail and never any talk about which boat sails great in that size.

[toddedger]

Morgan 27 is a great sailing boat