Hull flex on modern production boats

[boatman61]

I bought a French built Beneteau 321 circa 1987 that I solo'd from SXM to the UK in 2000... no structural problems.
2006 I bought an American built 2001 Beneteau 331 in the BVI's.. aft cabin berth collapsed onto the prop shaft (I was on my own ), definitely creaky but otherwise took me safely back to Europe on its own keel.. I put it down to undersized screws in the joinery.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Boats are actually more like houses than cars. Cars have to meet an extreme amount of government mandated testing and minimum equipment.
....

That's the same about boats with the RCD. Have a look at it and see the huge amount of rules that have to be fulfilled for a boat to be certified and be able to be sold.

Sure cars have mandatory inspections to see if they are still fit. Some governments have that for recreational boats too even if the methodologies and testing is not as developed as in what regards cars.

If as I believe with time the extended use of old boats results in an increase of pleasure boat accidents with possible loss of lives, sooner or later those mandatory boat inspections will be extended to most countries and the testing and methodologies much more specific and efective in what regards to detect if the boat is sound or not.

One of the reasons cars are ditched is because they will not pass on the inspections anymore or need very expensive refits to pass. The same will happen to boats.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by rourkeh

I have seen brand new French production boats like Beneteau etc that were sailed across the Atlantic on their own bottom for delivery. The bulkheads and cabinetry had separated and there were cracks in the hull to deck joint. You get what you pay for......

Yes it does happen once in while, Jeanneau, lagoon, Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter, Bavaria, ... especially for the very first units of a new model. Lagoon 420 comes to mind as a reasonably recent horrible experience for new owners. Soon enough the factory retired it for the Lagoon 421.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think it's very good to put objective numbers to this question.

After 10 years and up to maybe 40 years old, I think quality stick-built boats will not depreciate at all provided the condition is kept up. For example, the old Moody Carbineer 52 from the '70's continues to be much in demand and is sold for as much as 250 000 euros or more when in good condition; see: 1976 Moody 52 Carbineer - Boats Yachts for sale. I suppose in nominal currency units (say 500 000 DM) it's worth more than it cost new. My own boat is also worth not less than what I paid for her 8 years ago, but of course I spend money every year keeping her in good condition, updating the systems, etc., and I will lose all that money when I sell her.
....
So it depends. A disposable boat with a limited life might depreciate like a car, but good quality stick built boats -- not so much after the first few years.

I believe you are confounding asking price with selling price. I see all sort of crazy prices on boats, I have friends that try to sell their boats at prices that are not market prices, get offended when I say the boat will sell only for half what they are asking....and some years later they sell the boat, for about the market price, meaning half of what they were asking initially.

The price you should consider for half price is not the one the boat costed 30 years ago but the replacement cost now and in what regards Moody I cannot see a any diference even if some owners, as usual ask for crazy prices not selling the boats.

You posted on of those adverts regarding a 1976 Moody Carbineer with a crazy price (339 000 USD), well here you have more Moody Carbineers and you can see that the prices go from 77 900 USD to 154 600 USD and that means probably that if you want to sell one you would have to ask less than 70 000 USD and even so I doubt that it will sell for that price unless some crazy dreamer goes for it not knowing that it will spend a fortune to make the boat seaworthy again.
1972 Moody Carbineer Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regarding your boat we will see for how much you are going to sell it (I wish you all luck) but I would say that you would be negatively surprised. I can only say that I have already passed for that. LOL

Asking prices for your boat are around 370 000 USD. Consider that this are asking prices and that probably they would sell for 350 000 USD or less. The replacement price should be well over 2 000 000, maybe 2 500 000 (about the price of a well equipped Oyster 575) than your boat in about 15 years has only about 1/7 of its replacement value.
Moody 54 boats for sale - YachtWorld

In fact, in boats like in cars it is the more expensive boats that take a bigger hit in depreciation with years, not the cheaper ones.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

I believe you are confounding asking price with selling price. I see all sort of crazy prices on boats, I have friends that try to sell their boats at prices that are not market prices, get offended when I say the boat will sell only for half what they are asking....and some years later they sell the boat, for about the market price, meaning half of what they were asking initially.

The price you should consider for half price is not the one the boat costed 30 years ago but the replacement cost now and in what regards Moody I cannot see a any diference even if some owners, as usual ask for crazy prices not selling the boats.

You posted on of those adverts regarding a 1976 Moody Carbineer with a crazy price (339 000 USD), well here you have more Moody Carbineers and you can see that the prices go from 77 900 USD to 154 600 USD and that means probably that if you want to sell one you would have to ask less than 70 000 USD and even so I doubt that it will sell for that price unless some crazy dreamer goes for it not knowing that it will spend a fortune to make the boat seaworthy again.
1972 Moody Carbineer Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regarding your boat we will see for how much you are going to sell it (I wish you all luck) but I would say that you would be negatively surprised. I can only say that I have already passed for that. LOL

Asking prices for your boat are around 370 000 USD. Consider that this are asking prices and that probably they would sell for 350 000 USD or less. The replacement price should be well over 2 000 000, maybe 2 500 000 (about the price of a well equipped Oyster 575) than your boat in about 15 years has only about 1/7 of its replacement value.
Moody 54 boats for sale - YachtWorld

In fact, in boats like in cars it is the more expensive boats that take a bigger hit in depreciation with years, not the cheaper ones.

You are confusing the Carbineer 44 with the Carbineer 52. Those are very different boats. The 52 in good condition sells for not less than 200k; I know of one really nice one sold for 260k GBP last year, for more than the asking price (over 300k euros at the time). They are very beautiful boats which are much in demand, and generally sell for their asking prices. The 44 is nothing really special, and most people prefer the later Dixon designed boats of that size.

What you say about first years' depreciation of expensive boats is very true -- that's why I bought my boat, built in 2001, in 2009 when she was already 8 years old. The Moody 54 is not like the much larger and much more expensive Oyster 575; she was sold for under a million euros when new. 17 and 18 year old Moody 54's may now be bought for as little as 400k or even less when they are in need of updating (and most on the market now are in need of major refit), but part of that decrease in value comes from the large depreciation of the UK Pound last year. In good condition (with those 200k worth of work done like I've done on mine), they are sold for more like 600k. So the cost of my ownership over almost 9 years is probably about 200k, which I think is OK for a boat of this type. If I were to keep her longer, the cost per year would probably be somewhat less. Note that all these prices are somewhat distorted by the devaluation of the UK Pound -- in pounds, the decrease in value has been less.

You are right that I would have lost a lot more value if I had bought new, but this is at least partially compensated for by the lack of cost of upgrading during the first few years. I took a huge hit the first three years I owned my boat although she was in very good condition and very little used with only 830 hours on the main engine, and by now I have replaced all the standing and running rigging, all the electronics, all the sails, most of the major electrical equipment, etc., etc., etc. -- it really adds up. If I were to buy another production boat, I think I would buy new, despite the depreciation. Or else a boat which has just been through a major refit done with real quality. You also have to consider the value of not having things break all the time while you're trying to cruise.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by rourkeh

I have seen brand new French production boats like Beneteau etc that were sailed across the Atlantic on their own bottom for delivery. The bulkheads and cabinetry had separated and there were cracks in the hull to deck joint. You get what you pay for......

Note that these things happen to so called quality boatbuilders too. Tartan had delamination issues for years after they introduced epoxy to their manufacturing process.

Beneteau builds such a huge volume of boats however, and renews their ranges so often, that you’re bound to hear many more complaints about them. However if you look at the percentage of problem boats then I would be surprised if they didn’t do better than average.

Usually there isn’t much wrong with the design and it’s strictly a quality issue of the manufacturing process for a single unit here and there; the proverbial lemons.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Exile

My boat is definitely "old bones" (or maybe "old school"), with a heavy, thickly laid up non-cored hull, and cored decks. But guess what, I've always had creaking going on in more boisterous conditions (but not at anchor). I kinda doubt it's significant hull flex since all 16 portholes, 7 deck hatches & numerous interior doors, etc. have never leaked or failed to align. Probably should just go around checking the fasteners holding down all the furniture as has been suggested. I know that many modern production boats use glue in lieu of fasteners for interior fittings, but not sure which way that cuts.

Interesting. We have a Bristol 45.5 which is basically the same boat and we have no creaking even in sporty conditions. Used to have a lot of noise at the mast partners but a couple of years ago we replaced the teak! wedges with Spartite and now that is quiet too. We do get a bit of noise from the sliding cupboard doors in the forward cabin. The slot is bigger than the door frames so the doors move back and forth in some conditions. Have to stick a towel or inside to stop the doors from moving.

[Typhoon]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Interesting. We have a Bristol 45.5 which is basically the same boat and we have no creaking even in sporty conditions. Used to have a lot of noise at the mast partners but a couple of years ago we replaced the teak! wedges with Spartite and now that is quiet too. We do get a bit of noise from the sliding cupboard doors in the forward cabin. The slot is bigger than the door frames so the doors move back and forth in some conditions. Have to stick a towel or inside to stop the doors from moving.

We also have a Bristol 45.5 . Never any creaking . We do get the occasional snap from expansion with temperature changes but noting else. Again , solid hull , medium to heavy displacement boat . Cored decks , built like a tank .

Regards John

[Exile]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Interesting. We have a Bristol 45.5 which is basically the same boat and we have no creaking even in sporty conditions. Used to have a lot of noise at the mast partners but a couple of years ago we replaced the teak! wedges with Spartite and now that is quiet too. We do get a bit of noise from the sliding cupboard doors in the forward cabin. The slot is bigger than the door frames so the doors move back and forth in some conditions. Have to stick a towel or inside to stop the doors from moving.

Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine

We also have a Bristol 45.5 . Never any creaking . We do get the occasional snap from expansion with temperature changes but noting else. Again , solid hull , medium to heavy displacement boat . Cored decks , built like a tank .

Regards John

Built like a tank is an apt description. I've never sailed on a boat that felt more like a single, integral unit in rougher conditions.

Ainia - I bet much of what is creaking is attributable to the teak mast partners which I have stubbornly stuck with (after finally getting on top of water leaks from above that is). ColdEh - I also get the occasional snap you noted from temp changes, usually in the morn after a cool night. Always figured it was from all the joinery below.

Back to the creaking, it often made me wonder if the short stay inside the salon that attaches to the mast might be improperly tensioned. My understanding is that this actually helps keep the deck from raising up when heeled and the shrouds are exerting upwards force on the hull. I notice that if this short, interior stay is over-tensioned, a slight depression appears on the deck just above and water pools. Do you guys have this stay. Any insight?

[Typhoon]

Originally Posted by Exile

Built like a tank is an apt description. I've never sailed on a boat that felt more like a single, integral unit in rougher conditions.



Ainia - I bet much of what is creaking is attributable to the teak mast partners which I have stubbornly stuck with (after finally getting on top of water leaks from above that is). ColdEh - I also get the occasional snap you noted from temp changes, usually in the morn after a cool night. Always figured it was from all the joinery below.



Back to the creaking, it often made me wonder if the short stay inside the salon that attaches to the mast might be improperly tensioned. My understanding is that this actually helps keep the deck from raising up when heeled and the shrouds are exerting upwards force on the hull. I notice that if this short, interior stay is over-tensioned, a slight depression appears on the deck just above and water pools. Do you guys have this stay. Any insight?

Yes we have the same stay just below the deck going upwards from the mast . I just snug it slightly . I don't think it sees much pressure the screws that hold it are barely holding on to there threads . If it had to do any real work I'm sure I would find them sitting on the cabin floor . We don't have any deflection in the deck from it but I always have it just finger snug . Amazing boats these Bristols . I was at the Toronto boat show on the weekend , from what I saw in the build of the new boats our older boats should go up in value a lot . To get a decent offshore boat nowadays , fitted for long hauls you will have to spend well north of a million . Have you seen what a Morris or new Hinkley costs in the mid 45 foot range costs , maybe a Hylas ?

Regards John

[Exile]

Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine

Yes we have the same stay just below the deck going upwards from the mast . I just snug it slightly . I don't think it sees much pressure the screws that hold it are barely holding on to there threads . If it had to do any real work I'm sure I would find them sitting on the cabin floor . We don't have any deflection in the deck from it but I always have it just finger snug . Amazing boats these Bristols . I was at the Toronto boat show on the weekend , from what I saw in the build of the new boats our older boats should go up in value a lot . To get a decent offshore boat nowadays , fitted for long hauls you will have to spend well north of a million . Have you seen what a Morris or new Hinkley costs in the mid 45 foot range costs , maybe a Hylas ?

Regards John

When we purchased our 47.7, our first "shakedown" cruise was to sail it from Portsmouth, RI to Miami in late Oct., and we predictably encountered some "enthusiastic" conditions, most notably off the NJ coast as I recall. The boat had only been lightly used up to that point, but midway through the trip south I noticed that the interior SS backing plate for that interior stay had deformed a bit from the pressure. I figured it had been over-tightened from the get-go, and since I've backed off on it there has been no further deformation. So apparently finger snug is probably all that's called for. My boat has through-bolts rather than screws for this plate, and they have held up fine.

I'm not sure what Hinckley is producing these days, but Morris seems like one of only a handful of mfgs. that might still be building boats the "old school" way, i.e. with a lot of labor-intensive methods that produce beautiful, well-found, but also very expensive boats. There's also a lot to be said for modern production boats, especially the many that employ construction techniques that make them more affordable. It would be interesting to find out what our boats may have sold for when new, and what that would amount to in today's dollars. Anecdotally I have been told it would be well over $1M. Given the quality of their construction, they are rather timeless, IF properly maintained & upgraded that is. About a year ago I had to have a thorough insurance survey done, and absolutely no moisture was detected in either the hull or the decks. In fact, the surveyor commented that it was probably in the best condition of any used -- and perhaps new boat -- he had ever surveyed. Ongoing maintenance is obviously a big factor, of course, but that's more easily accomplished if you're starting out with high quality construction.

I agree this should bode well for boats like this maintaining their value, but with the popularity and numbers of modern boats being produced the supply/demand equation may not be in our favor. As Dockhead pointed out, high quality older boats often tend to depreciate to a certain point and then maintain value, but the 2007-08 financial crash did a number on the used boat market which it may not ever fully recover from. In the meantime, older boats are getting older and new boats are being produced & sold at attractive prices. At the end of the day, and when factoring in modern production boat depreciation, it may in fact be more expensive to buy a new production boat than refitting older ones like ours, but too many variables to reach definitive conclusions it seems. Probably more about personal preference at that point.